Mosin nagant identification

[Connor Radtke]

Many years ago when my dad moved into this house (before that it was his dad's, or my grandpa's) and he knows that the gun did not belong to his dad so he has absolutely no clue on whose it was before. It is in poor condition and I would at least like to restore it to working condition and I figure you guys would be of help. I tried looking on the barrel shroud and there was some russian text and I put it through google translate and it said IMPERIAL WEAPONS FACTORY, which as far as I can tell is tula arma plant, but beyond that I am lost and would appreciate any help (right now I am trying to identify what type of mosin it is because I figured that is step one to restoring it to working condition). Attached are some images of the gun.

[millman]

It looks to be a very early model retaining some early traits. Like that flat rear sight. There have been a few shown here with the Japanese on them. Those were determined to be used by the Japanese as trainers or something. That said, people with better memories than I will come along and tell you better.
However I can say that you would be best advised to not mess with it much until you have all the info on it. Messing that one up would be a shame
Edit:
I just noticed the chopped stock. That sucks. At least the barrel appears to be all there..

[racerguy00]

Imperial m91, most likely a Russo-Japanese war rifle. Pretty dang uncommon

[Junk Yard Dog]

Wow! Yea, that's someone's WW2 trophy , M91 captured by the Japanese from the Russians and put to work as a trainer. I don't recall if the stocks were shortened by the Japanese, but it's a possibility. You don't see these very often, exercise extreme care with whatever you do to clean it up. Better yet, oil the rust and do nothing at all without careful investigation to be sure you are not destroying any original finish, this is NOT a low dollar item. It's also possible the rust was already there when it was picked up by GI Joe and brought home to show the folks. Few Japanese weapons brought home after the war were well respected. Some went up on walls, others were given over to the younger brothers to play with, and some ended up becoming Bubba hunting rifles. More than a few were just chucked into attics, closets and worse. To demonstrate the attitude GI Joe had for Japanese rifles, I found one type 38 at a flea market being used to shore up a canopy pole by being roped to it with it's bayonet mounted in a light misty rain. Full mum, action cover, sling, bayonet with sheath and frog, very nice wood, and metal. The guy who did that was the man who brought it home from the Islands after the war, and he seemed surprised I wanted " that old Jap rifle" for $60 ( 1989) I wiped it down, oiled it, and did a full strip down and clean when I got home, it was not harmed by the wet.

[SA1911a1]

That metal looks like it could stand a little machine oil and a good rubbing down with some terrycloth rags.

That is really a nice rifle; cut stock or not.

[Connor Radtke]

It seems you guys are right about it being captured for the japenese, as I took a closer look and discovered that on the other side of the stock there is some stuff that would imply that (picture attached). I dont know why the lettering is in english though. My dad owns enough guns that he is always ready with a couple cleaning kits and he let me use one to start cleaning out the barrel, I knocked a rock out of it and started cleaning it, but after about 45 minutes total whatever brush he gave me became obviously not 7.62x54r, as at the start it was so dirty that you could not even see the rifling and it was probably sitting in the garage for at least 30 years before my dad found it (or so he estimated, making it double my age) and he is picking up some cleaning stuff meant for 7.62x54r so that it will actually clean nicely (it cleaned beautifully at first, but now whatever size the brush is that I am using it just slides right down without doing anything). On another note, I think the rifle would look very nice if it wasn't covered in rust, is there a specific rust removal that is kind on it and will not damage the metal or should I leave it to prevent even more damage. On yet another note, my brother seems worried that the barrel is pitted in some places (about 3 times total), my dad dosen't seem worried about it but my brother recommends I mention it here to see if it would be a problem, if you want more detail on it I will provide some tomorrow, but right now I am not certian it is a problem.

Also, some more info, upon looking closer with a magnifying glass and flashlight, is that it was made in the year 902 (presumably they meant 1902 but that got rusted over), making it 118 years old (or 1,118 years old, depending on what you choose to believe)

Edit: I realised I should point out that the pitting is on the outside of the barrel, and not the inside. The inside looks clean.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Sometimes the boys marked them like that, I have some from the Great War era with names, dates, VFW post markings. It would have to be 1902 as the Russo-Japanese war was 1904-05.

Take a copper bore brush, make sure it's copper and not brass or stainless steel. Pour lots of oil on the rust and scrub with that little brush until the oil turns orange with rust. Wipe off, reapply more oil and continue until the oil is clean and so is the metal. Do a small area at a time. Pitting in the bore would be expected given your description of the cleaning. So long as the bore isn't so eroded that there is no remaining rifling, or very deep pitted areas then it should be OK if the headspace checks out. If the erosion has eaten away the crown down into the last inch of the bore then accuracy will be keyhole, or shotgun pattern at best. Likely these were not in the best of condition when the Japanese had them after 40 years of training use.

Left in the garage, that sounds typical. This rifle had two strikes against it from that generations viewpoint. Russian rifle, and this was during the Cold War, and used by the Japs, and many of that era despised the Japanese after the war, and had a low regard for their equipment. The Japanese are offering in some cases millions of dollars for the return of historically significant Samurai swords that were probably handed off to kid brothers to use as wood choppers the moment GI Joe got home.

[Connor Radtke]

Actually, the barrel is fairly clean, spraying some Remington brite bore down the barrel and using what I am almost certian was a copper bore brush down up and down it 12 times and then spraying in some more of the brite bore stuff and rinsing and repeating a few times before running some fabric patches soaked in the brite bore stuff up and down and repeating all that seems to have cleaned it nicely, but after spending all that time the patches are still light grey when coming out of the barrel, and my dad said ideally they should still be white. My dad seems pretty knowledgeable in cleaning bores and whatnot, but I dont think hes ever had to clean the outside metal of so much rust like this gun has, and I was wondering if there was a specific oil I should use in cleaning the outside and a specific thing to wipe down the oil I use or would say paper towels do fine. Also, some more stuff I forgot to put in earlier is:

1. Sights. Looking it up, apparently the sight are measured in arshins and not meters, which makes trying to aim this thing look less enjoyable. Also you can flip up the sight and move it up and down to aim at some rather optimistic ranges but it just keeps sliding down, is there any way I can stop it from just sliding back to the bottom (like anyone would ever use the sights flipped up in the first place)

2. Magazine. How exactly should I go about cleaning the magazine, my dad helped clean the bolt but that cleaned pretty easily since it is detachable, how should I go about cleaning the chamber and magazine?

3. Making sure it works. I want to get some 7.62x54r dummy rounds to make sure it works correctly with 7.62x54r and there is no unexpected problems, but when I look up 7.62x54r dummy rounds, I see nothing relevant to get. Are there any places I could buy a few to make sure it works and not focus on getting it working to find out I need to buy new parts vs spending time cleaning the outside while I wait for new parts to arrive.

[steelbuttplate]

You could have a frosted bore, it's lost its shine but not the rifling, the patches may never be white. You'll figure out that magazine, the sight may have grease, grit etc keeping the spring from working. Most current gunsmiths should have headspace gauges to check it for you. You gonna look at those dummy rounds someday and think Why did I buy those damn things.

[Junk Yard Dog]

White patches never stay white when stuffed down a bore. You can try until you are a hundred and used patches are flowing out the windows of your home. They will have a ghost of gray on them, that's not fouling, it's from the steel itself. If the rifle is apart cleaning the mag is just popping out the floor plate, cleaning it , and running a rag into the mag well. The floorplate comes out using the sliding catch on the bottom. Sounds like a spring broke in the slider of the sight elevator, you can try replacing it, expensive to find a new sight assembly ( new used) or just leave it down, and range test it using the sight at it's lowest setting. This will probably be enough for most shooting at 50-100 yards. Too much actually as most of these will shoot high at that range.

If it passes headspace and the bore looks good, fire it with live ammo.

[Connor Radtke]

What would you reccomend out of the two options for cleaning the barrel: phosphor bronze or nylon bore brush?

[millman]

What would you reccomend out of the two options for cleaning the barrel: phosphor bronze or nylon bore brush?

Bronze

[Connor Radtke]

My dad wants to remove some screws to get at the action of the gun to clean it, but I don't know if that is a good idea because of the guns age, I am worried that if the screws are removed, because of how old it is, it will damage the wood holding in the screws and you will be unable to put it back on. The wood has something over it to protect it, but I am unsure if that has been applied to the inside of it and I think that doing that will just be a bad idea in general. Question is, am I being an idiot or should we trust that it is fine (so far everything still works, but my dad wants to clean it up).

[millman]

https://russian-mosin-nagant.com/cleaning/index.html

Follow these instructions for disassembly. It will be easier to clean the metal without hurting the stock if you take it apart. It should be taken apart and inspected closely before you even think of firing it.

[SA1911a1]

Are you guys reasonably certain that the Japanese did not alter these rifles to fire something other than 7.62 x 54R?

[tomaustin]

1911, you thinking they bored them out ?? what was the wall thickness on the barrels? or just ream the chamber and fit another barrel ?

[willyj73]

I wouldn't shoot that with modern ammo (I suppose you could do a light load if you reload). It doesn't have a crossbolt for the action. Ammo changed in 1908, and I believe the recoil was damaging the stocks, hence the addition of the crossbolt. The rear sight changed as well to account for the different trajectory of the new round. Your rifle was probably captured during the Russo-Japanese war (early 1900s), and converted to a training rifle for Japan. As far as cleaning the rust, a brass brush should work--the metal will turn yellowish gold from the brush, but that will come off.

[willyj73]

I forgot to add that the Japanese typically altered the rifles so they would be closer in appearance to the rifles Japan was using. This typically involved removing the magazine housing and filling that section with wood (Japanese rifles did not have exposed magazines). I think some may have had bayonet lugs added. Regardless, your rifle is a piece of history. The Kanji on the stock is probably almost as old as the rifle. I wouldn't worry about trying to make it into a shooter--you're missing the unique historical aspects of the rifle. The word "rare" takes on various shades of rarity. While your rifle isn't one of a kind rare, it's certainly not common, and it's fairly rare in its current condition. I'd just clean it up and appreciate it's uniqueness. Cheap shooters can be found for less than $300 if you want to shoot the 54r round out of a rifle. Non updated M91s, on the other hand, aren't very common. Your rifle is a timepiece of history. It served in two empires that no longer exist, and was taken as a war trophy in the largest war on earth. Don't destroy it be trying to convert it into a common shooter. ***Added, the forearm may be a duffle cut***

[Connor Radtke]

Sorry for the late reply, I had to do schoolwork and have just started driving a car so I was focused on not crashing, but since school is over I now have time. I have cleaned the action of the gun and want to remove the rust, the only bronze brushes my dad has are barrel ones so I dont think that's a good idea to try removing rust with those. I decided to look online about removing rust from a gun and saw some rather dubious methods (dremel, steel wool, etc). The reason I want it in a working condition is because if, say, a part of the action was damaged, then the gun would probably end up just sitting in my brothers safe (my dad's gun safe won't fit it because it is so long) and knowing my brother he will not want it in his gun safe even though it only has one gun in it and he will try (and probably succeed) at convincing my dad to take it to a gun buy back because of its condition (and he has a bit of a lack of care for something like this, instead of seeing it as an artifact of history he sees it as just a normal gun, if it's broken fix it if you cant then get rid of it), the other option I see would be giving it to my friend who is an even bigger history nut than me so I know it would be kept in a good condition and taken care of but I am not certian that his parents would approve of it. As far as ammo change, my dad used to load his own shotgun shells for shooting trap (he doesn't now because of how hard it is to find the right powder), so no luck there but I know he has a friend who does reloads, the load got lighter so could you explain to me why it's a bad idea since I'm just getting into firearms. If we do manage to get some lighter load ammo and it works fine then for Father's Day I'll buy something to mount it on the wall as a showpiece (I know my dad would like that and that will also not bother my brother, since knowing him he will still want it out of his safe) since my dad has all sorts of guns like a couple sks, some shotguns, a Thompson submachine gun, an old revolver (single action, black powder cap and ball), etc, so I doubt that he will ever need ammo with a lighter load past shooting it once or twice. One thing I would like to say is I really like the simplicity of the mosin, when cleaning it in the bright sun and you accidentally bump the action and the thing that holds the trigger falls out and off the paper towels and onto the deck which is, rather remarkably, the EXACT color of the piece that fell out, has a strange ability to make you panic thinking it fell between the poorly spaced boards and onto the rocks and spider laden area below.

[willyj73]

Watch cleaning on a deck. The trigger pins on Mosins have a tendency to fall out. It's very possible to lose one. As far as the ammo, I don't know all of the particulars with the changes. I believe the new ammo (adopted in 1908) is more powerful than the older ammo the rifle was originally designed to use. When firing, the stock absorbs some of the recoil of the action. I will post a photo of one area that has contact with the stock with shooting--this is the area that can split the wood--hence the reason for the crossbolt.