is it authentic?

[wawa]

This German markup I understand is the revision by which it entered the EU.

What do you think is an authentic PU?
thx

[Snayperskaya]

The scope looks genuine and the serial number on the rifle itself appears to be in the block of known '43-dated PU snipers but to my eyes the scope serial number on the barrel shank looks fairly new and the font of the "7" looks wrong , the scope mount also looks quite but I could be wrong.

WaffSchu is Waffen-Schumacher, a major German firearms importer/exporter/wholesaler.There are quite a few Waffen-Schumacher PU snipers in the UK, I looked at some before I found my PU and the ones I looked at were "put together" rifles rather than original.I have a Cugir made Romanian AKM that was imported into the UK via Waffen-Schumacher.

As I said I could be wrong, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon.

[wawa]

Thank you for answering, it is possible to know the history of my mosin through the number of the weapon?

[Igrlik]

Missing letters in bolt number means - is not orignal to this weapon from the factory. And I can´t see typical "SN" or "SP" on the barrel for "snajper".

[Snayperskaya]

Missing letters in bolt number means - is not orignal to this weapon from the factory. And I can´t see typical "SN" or "SP" on the barrel for "snajper".

The СП or CH marks are found on Tula produced rifles aren't they?, the OP's rifle is a Izhevsk made rifle.

[Snayperskaya]

Thank you for answering, it is possible to know the history of my mosin through the number of the weapon?

I think it would be pretty much impossible to trace its history through the serial number, once it left Izhevsk all those years ago it would be anyones guess on where its been over the last 76 years

[reiver]

The scope and mounts look good to me...scope is honest.....it also has a Circle C on the barrel that was on many, but not all, Izhvesk snipers....but, from what I've read, is only on snipers from that factory.
It was always up high/towards the front but is found sometimes on the right or left.....my sniper has this mark on the right from '43.

[Snayperskaya]

The scope and mounts look good to me...scope is honest.....it also has a Circle C on the barrel that was on many, but not all, Izhvesk snipers....but, from what I've read, is only on snipers from that factory.
It was always up high/towards the front but is found sometimes on the right or left.....my sniper has this mark on the right from '43.

My '44 Izhevsk has a "C" on top of the flat on the left hand receiver wall.

I still think the OP's scope serial number on the barrel shank looks wrong, that 7 doesn't look right.

[reiver]

The scope and mounts look good to me...scope is honest.....it also has a Circle C on the barrel that was on many, but not all, Izhvesk snipers....but, from what I've read, is only on snipers from that factory.
It was always up high/towards the front but is found sometimes on the right or left.....my sniper has this mark on the right from '43.

My '44 Izhevsk has a "C" on top of the flat on the left hand receiver wall.

I still think the OP's scope serial number on the barrel shank looks wrong, that 7 doesn't look right.

The C in a circle is stamped on the barrel r or L above the factory stamp on snipers....there is a thread about this on GB's presently and the majority of the responders indicate (who know a lot more than me) that was an Izhevsk sniper stamp or barrel accuracy stamp (same thing really)… this was a barrel stamp and it must be within a circle. It is often opposite the y in a circle proof mark. I am just passing what I've read recently and am no expert by any means.

As to the correctness of the match you may be correct.... the 4 font looks different on the scope mount.... the scope is a refurbed item which would indicate the unit as a refurb so throw that in the mix.... were the same fonts used years latter when rematching ? The Font on the bolt seem to match the serial number font....the size and shape of that 4 that is different than the scope mount but those two would have been done upon assembly and the mount may have been done later when refurbished.....just a guess.

I thought I'd add these serial #'s of 1943 Izhevsk recorded in the sticky on GB....it would seem to fit …. but again simply info.
ИИ 1034 (PU, 1943, scope 58855)
ИИ 4203 (PU, 1943, scope A53380)
ИИ 4276 (PU, 1943, scope A59208)
ИИ 7464 (PU, 1943, scope A71440)

[Snayperskaya]

I thought I'd add these serial #'s of 1943 Izhevsk recorded in the sticky on GB....it would seem to fit …. but again simply info.
ИИ 1034 (PU, 1943, scope 58855)
ИИ 4203 (PU, 1943, scope A53380)
ИИ 4276 (PU, 1943, scope A59208)
ИИ 7464 (PU, 1943, scope A71440)

That's the serial number block I was referring to in my first post where I said the OP's rifle serial number seems to fit.

Is the "C in a circle" mark actually a C in a circle or is it a concentric "00" (one 0 inside another) that is poorly stamped or partially scrubbed?.The "00" stamp is indeed an accuracy proof.

Going by what I've read on the GB forums and elsewhere the jury seems to be still out on the "C in a circle" mark on Izhevsk PU snipers and unless I'm wrong there is no definitive answer.There are also quite a few threads regarding the "C" on the receiver wall, which seems to be present on the majority on Izhevsk PU's

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you at all but there doesn't seem to be definite answers to what a lot of these stamps are or what the significance of them is, unlike the sniper mark found on Tula barrel shanks.

Here is the "C" on my receiver wall for reference....

DSC_0133.JPG

Edit.......just looking at my PU now and there is a partial mark to the left of the crest on the barrel shank that is partially scrubbed.......it could be a "C in a circle" or a "00" but I can't tell as that part of the shank has been scrubbed and only have a faint number "4" left of the scope serial number unfortunately :-(.

[reiver]

It is a C within a circle and the circle is the same size as the often seen y in a circle proof mark...normally stamped above/near the factory stamp on the barrel.....the mark in your picture is not it. You can see it in the OP's pics above on the barrel markings shot....it is a clean stamp but slightly worn.

[Snayperskaya]

It is a C within a circle and the circle is the same size as the often seen y in a circle proof mark...normally stamped above/near the factory stamp on the barrel.....the mark in your picture is not it. You can see it in the OP's pics above on the barrel markings shot....it is a clean stamp but slightly worn.

C mark on receiver......

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... s-marked-C

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... lease-help!

[racerguy00]

The C in a circle on the barrel has been shown by Ratnik to be an Izhevsk sniper marking through his extensive research of Soviet documents.

[reiver]

The C in a circle on the barrel has been shown by Ratnik to be an Izhevsk sniper marking through his extensive research of Soviet documents.

That was in the recent GB thread we were discussing but I could not locate it to link it.

Thanks....should have simply said that myself.... Alex is a great source of documents that put rumor to bed.....

Ah, here is the thread with Ratniks comments...

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... e-Question

To be totally accurate, according to Alex, the barrels were marked as such because they were produced at a/to a higher tolerance...not tested first and marked later....they were produced as more accurate and the barrels marked as such. The majority of war era Izhevsk sniper rifles have them...but some were also used in normal rifle production due to need. IOTW, it is not a def 100% (as in most things Mosin nothing is) but a very strong indicator.

[wawa]

But does this mean that this mosin is not a PU?

[reiver]

But does this mean that this mosin is not a PU?

No, simply discussing a marking...the C in a Circle and this Mosin does have that....that is in its favor as an original sniper.

[Longcolt44]

You guys are such experts in markings, answer the mans original question.

[reiver]

You guys are such experts in markings, answer the mans original question.

Ask Ratnik, he is an expert….I was simply passing on his articulated knowledge after studying this subject of markings....or yourself, you must be an expert.


To my not so expert eye it looks to be a nice arsenal refurb.....that is my guess...but.... a few things bother me about #stampings. I believe the rifle to be a sniper but am not sure about the scope match up...if done at an arsenal or later. That is where my expertise ends.
It is rather easy to have a re sniper look original.
I did the same thing , asked, when I purchased my first....I thought it was but was not certain...a '43 Izhevsk with refurbed arsenal markings on stock/PU Kazan....auto penned new scope with xxxxx'd out old (that I would also expect on this rifle that is not there as the scope is refurbed). The confirmation was numerous same batch arsenal refurbs that looked like mirror images other than the #'s. and individuals knowing the source batch.

[Darryl]

There are only a few people I think are experts in this field of PU Snipers. No offense, but none of them have posted on this thread. I know, you have tried your best to evaluate the rifle as best you can from information (such as photos and articles) others have posted on different forums and here. That is helpful, Thank you.

I think there is a reason the so called "experts" have not posted on this thread (I think). Now, that will probably come back to bite me in the ass because there are probably hundreds of reasons not to post by them. But I know why I didn't. There are some interesting items and history on this rifle (and the importer) most here are not even aware of.

First just a little history on this rifle. Waffen Schumacher did not export this rifle out of Russia by itself. Fact is, it was exported out of Russia by Molot. It was exported out of Germany to the USA by Waffen Schumacher for Molot. They are one of Molots companies that they worked with to get these rifles out of Russia. So, they are really Molot PU snipers with additional marks from other companies.

Molot Buisness Partners (same rifle as Molot)

Waffen Schumacher GmbH Krefeld, Germany
Rosjagd GmbH Hamburg, Germany
Asekauppa Erkki Lahdeniemi Tampere, Finland
Artemis AS Oslo, Norway
Zommers Ltd. Riga, Latvia
Hunting Association "Jaanikese" Estonia
Ase Travel Ulan Bator, Mongolia
Kartalis Near East Agency Thessaloniki, Greece
Indusstek Hornsby, New South Wales, Australia

Molot PU snipers have some very "unique" things on them that no other PU sniper has that have come out of the arsenals. Leaving people to speculate about them and Molot refuses to comment on them.

They gave us these rifles also.

short_Molot_hunting_rifle_2.jpg

Also this

Molot_made_sniper_rifle.jpg

So we know Molot is not above altering Mosins similar to what Michell's Mausers does to Mausers. When evaluating a Molot, you need to remember this and look at each item on the rifle and determine if it is real or not or replaced. There are many Molot PU snipers that have all correct parts on them. Others items raise an eyebrow. The collecting community has decided to except them, which is fine But, each one has to be looked at closely.

I can only give you my "opinion" on this rifle. I will try to do it one photo at a time. Then I will address the comments here. The following photos are reduced in size from the ones above. If you want more detail, refer to those above. I'm using these cut down versions for reference to the above photos.

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Photo #1

What I see here is a "real" PU sniper base. To me, it looks like it has a after market thumb tightening knob on it. I supposed an argument could be it is a "post war" item. Never was around during WWII.



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Photo#2

In my opinion, same correct base. Looks WWII made original. Again, knob looks replaced.



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Photo#3

This (for me) is a troubling area. The area is pretty rough and they didn't do that with PU snipers on the barrel shank.Now, it could just be the photo also. But, the other problem is I see inspection mark (proof marks) down low on this side. Perhaps even removed and some left behind? This area was reserved for the scope marks on all WWII PU snipers. Those marks were moved to the other side or the top. Also, those numbers have always been a bug in my ass. Those scope numbers were added after WWII. Molot is the only PU snipers with those numbers in that font. Could one of the arsenals refurbishing them have done this, maybe. But those fonts are very modern. Just a problem for me. Maybe not for others. Just a personal call.



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Photo#4

Nothing here.



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Photo#5

Correct bolt. Proper bent and correct bending marks. It is a typical refurbished PU sniper bolt.



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Photo#6

Correct bolt. Nothing here.



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Photo#7

Here we see what the finish on a PU sniper barrel shank looks like. This is why I am confused by Photo#3. #3 looks rough. Maybe it is the lighting? All looks OK here. Nothing indicating anything correct ot not.



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Photo#8

Correct refurbished scope. Turrets and screws all look OK and from a real WWII scope. I'll comment on the mount later.



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Photo#9

Looks like a correct refurbished PU Sniper scope from WWII.



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Photo#10

Bolt looks good. Stock looks "sanded" and refinished. And I'm not talking about arsenal refurbished. Now, I will admitt, this is a close call for me, but I don't see anything about this that jumps out as arsenal refurbished (and it should).




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Photo#11

I've covered everthing here above.



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Photo#12

Typical of this company and Molot PU snipers. Nothing to say here.



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Photo#14

This is not the OP's photo. It is not an indication that it was a PU sniper. It is not the correct "C" that they even look for. The C they talk about is a C in a circle on the barrel shank. Not on the receiver. I have a problem with this because it is not consistant at all. It shows up on some snipers, and not on others. Ir shows sometime on ex-snipers and sometimes not. I've even seen it on standard Infantry M91/30's (althoug, it is rare). So it is nothing that can be used one way or another.



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Now for some of the comments:

Blocks of snipers (serial numbers) mean nothing. I have seen faked snipers made from M91/30's that came from these "blocks" of rifles. It's sometimes interesting to look at, but never anything you can depend on (like the circle in a C mark.


CN and CH marks are only on Tula PU snipers and doesn't apply to this rifle.

No Mosin rifle can be traced (history) by it's serial number. The Russians made damn sure that there was no way to tell how many were made or when. They rotated the serial numbers all over the place. No records to this day are available as to where the rifles went to.

But does this mean that this mosin is not a PU?

It's a PU Sniper rifles. For me (and I'm sure not everyone,) some of the parts are suspect. Is it "authentic"? What is "authentic". It's a Molot PU sniper. There is no way to know what they (Molot) did or didn't do to this rifle. They are not talking about it and never have. But most of the collecting community is accepting it as a PU sniper rifle.

Now, for my "disclamer" .....

Sorry for the long winded post. I just felt this rifle and some of the posts needed to be squared out. It is almost impossible to determine if a PU sniper is real or not. Not from photos. You need it in your hands to know for sure. If the photos are plenty and are of all the areas needed, then it is easier to make an assumption. But most do not post proper photos of all the areas.

Missing on this rifle is
the back of the mount.
the back of the base.
all the import marks (all of them)
detail photos of the barrel shank.
better shot of the back of the bolt handle


Again, sorry for the long post.

[reiver]

Good post... I had the same basic position you have altho my experience is not very deep. It is very hard to tell unless there are blatant errors or obvious after market pieces.
When you have a rifle that looks like a proper sniper and a period scope it comes down to markings that match and even that is dif to tell in pictures.
I missed the base fastening knob as the base looks legit....the knob edge relief makes it a newer piece... the grub screws appeared staked.


From what I've read there are no hard/fast 'rules' for arsenal refurbed matchings...some auto pen...some stamped mounts etc....all of which can be replicated.


If a sniper is advertised as non refurbed that would make the authentication easier I believe....with the arsenal refurbs there is conjecture. Is that a proper statement?