Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

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Lotema
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Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

A couple weeks ago I saw a post on Armslist for an auction that included what they called a "Russian Mosin-Nagant (Finnish made) 1905". The auction house had one photo of the right side of the rifle but nothing more. It immediately caught my attention though as it had the Deutsches Reich stamp, the stock did not have sling slots and there were sling hangers on the magazine and front barrel band. Certainly not features you see very often at all and I knew I had to go to the auction and give my best try to bring this one home with me. There was a pretty good amount of competition for it but in the end I wound up being the winner and brought this old girl home with me.

The rifle itself is pretty interesting and I'm very curious to get some others opinions on it. It's not all matching but I think there are quite a few original parts still on the rifle. The magazine and butt plate serial numbers look to be original matching, with all the magazine internals being Izhevsk stamped parts. The bolt though is not original matching, though it is restamped with the serial number on the side. All of the bolt parts appear to be Tula pieces. The rear barrel band is Izhevsk but the front band is Tula. I would tend to think that the rifle came through via Finland but there aren't really any Finn traits to it. The rear sight doesn't have the Arshins crossed out or meters marked on it. There is no [SA] or D stamp on the barrel shank, nothing that really screams that it went to Finland. There are no import marks on the rifle either, so it likely came into the country a very long time ago. I don't think it's Balkan or SCW, doesn't really have traits for either of those. I don't really think it's a bring-home rifle either. The rifle had some very old dried grease on the exposed parts and some pretty thick grease on the internals, similar to what I've seen on some Finn rifles, including some fir needles embedded in the grease inside the magazine. I'm guessing that it likely was an old Finnish import but would welcome some other opinions.

Anyhow, here's a bunch of photos of the rifle.

The exposed metal on the rifle is in the white, all of the bluing is pretty much gone, though under the woodline it is still present. It is also present for the most part on the rear sight. As you can see, the rifle is a 1905 Izhevsk M91. The barrel shank does not have an [SA] or D stamp that might indicate Finnish ownership at some point. The receiver does not have the serial number stamped on the side either, as would be expected with a later import.
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The receiver is also stamped with a 1905 date and the Izhevsk logo.
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The receiver has likely been mated with the stock for a fairly long period of time as the tang date impression can be clearly seen in the wood.
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Cleaning rod nut..
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What drew me to the rifle the most of course was the stock. The combination of the German capture stamp and the fact that the stock did not have sling slots, which were added in 1908. I would tend to believe that this stock is original to the rifle. It still has the original matching butt plate, has the very clear impression from the tang date etc.
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The right side of the stock has the Deutsches Reich stamp, showing the rifle likely served during WWI and was captured by the Germans. The stamp for the stock maker is also present though it is no longer legible.
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The butt plate appears to be original matching.
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The magazine appears to be original matching. The magazine also has the sling hanger installed at the front of the magazine, which would have been correct for a 1905 m91. All of the internal parts of the magazine are Izhevsk stamped.
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A picture of the right side of the magazine, along with the bolt and receiver.
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The rear sight still has most of it's bluing, at least compared to the rest of the exposed metal. The right side has not been updated with meter marks as would be typical of a Finnish m91.
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Left side of rear sight. Still has the Russian Arshins not crossed out
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Left side of rifle
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Front sight, izhevsk parts, left side, Tula front barrel band with hanger.
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Left side, Izhevsk rear barrel band
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The bolt is not original matching to the rifle. There are multiple crossed out numbers in the standard location and was restamped with this rifles number on the side. All of the parts of the bolt are Tula rather than Izhevsk.
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Serial number stamped on the side.
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The cocking knob has been restamped though it does not have the serial number of this rifle on it.
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At least 2 serial numbers have been assigned to this bolt before it was restamped to this rifle.
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Barrel Bands
The front barrel band was made by Tula and still has the slign hanger installed. It appears to be a 2nd configuration, which has the notches for the handguard tabs.
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The rear barrel band is Izhevsk marked. Also in this photo, you can see that the front hanger is slightly bent.
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The rifle was originally covered in old dried grease on the metal parts that were exposed and pretty thick grease under the woodline and in all of the internals. You can see the thick grease on the interrupter and trigger here. You can also see that the trigger is Izhevsk marked.
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Lotema
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Titanium Hammer
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Titanium Hammer »

I really like this one & was happy to hear that you were able to bring her home from the auction. Definitely looks worthy of a Showcase submission to me. Looking forward to seeing her next weekend at the range as well as hearing what people think her story is. Congrats! :Drool1: :thumbsup:
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by steelbuttplate »

Shoot yea thats :cool2: You got me wondering is it WW1 capture ?
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Lotema
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

steelbuttplate wrote:Shoot yea thats :cool2: You got me wondering is it WW1 capture ?
Yup, the Deutsches Reich stamp on the butt stock shows that it would have been captured by the Germans during WWI.
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

Titanium Hammer wrote:I really like this one & was happy to hear that you were able to bring her home from the auction. Definitely looks worthy of a Showcase submission to me. Looking forward to seeing her next weekend at the range as well as hearing what people think her story is. Congrats! :Drool1: :thumbsup:
Thanks TH. Yup, I'll give you a chance to hold this one next weekend! I'm just happy that I was able to bring this one home without breaking the bank. It was nice that the wife gave me the ok to get it at all costs but happy that I didn't have to go that far. She might have *said* I could spend whatever but if I had done that, well, I'd be out in the dog house for a while..
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Fledge »

Very NICE!!
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :vcool:
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by GT_80 »

That is a phenomenal find. Very cool! Pardon my ignorance, but what would make that much of the bluing come off? And it's nice that the bluing is gone and there still no rust. It looks super cool.

I love how you can see the impression of the stamping in the wood from the magazine.
1935r Izhevsk hex receiver 91/30, serial number 407, laminated stock
1942r Izhevsk round receiver 91/30 re-arsenal "parts built" gun
1944r Izhevsk round receiver M44 very smooth action
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Darryl »

Who stripped the bluing off the receiver and magazine (and other parts)?
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

GT_80 wrote:That is a phenomenal find. Very cool! Pardon my ignorance, but what would make that much of the bluing come off? And it's nice that the bluing is gone and there still no rust. It looks super cool.
I love how you can see the impression of the stamping in the wood from the magazine.
dolk wrote:Who stripped the bluing off the receiver and magazine (and other parts)?
I have no clue who may have stripped the bluing off of the parts. Certainly wasn't me. All of those parts were covered is some very old dried grease as evidenced by the last set of photos, so whoever did it would have done it quite a long time ago. Pretty much everything under the woodline still has all of it's bluing and it doesn't appear they attempted to remove it there. I wonder whether that had happened before it received the rear sight update, post 1908, as the rear sight and barrel forward of that still maintains it's bluing.

I certainly have quite a few questions about this rifle, though I'm sure I'll never really know the full history.
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Phosphorus32 »

That is a very interesting find! I love the stock and sling hangers.

I agree that the font of the buttplate and floorplate SNs match the receiver. Those distinctive "blebs" on the termini of the 3, 5 and 6, and the almost rectangular 6 cinch it for me, though the latter characteristic is not quite as strong on the floorplate. Could just be the camera angle on those floorplate pictures.

I've run across (and acquired) a few firearms with bluing at 5% or less, especially in areas likely to be handled most frequently while carrying the rifle unslung (magazine, receiver, chamber). People that perspire heavily, like myself, are particularly hard on the exposed areas of the bluing on firearms due to the salts. Luckily I can wipe mine down and oil them when I go shooting in the summer. I would say perspiration induced corrosion and bluing stripping is one, but not the only, reasonable hypothesis.

All of the parts seem to be "early" as well, especially that nice serialized cocking knob.
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

Phosphorus32 wrote:That is a very interesting find! I love the stock and sling hangers.

I agree that the font of the buttplate and floorplate SNs match the receiver. Those distinctive "blebs" on the termini of the 3, 5 and 6, and the almost rectangular 6 cinch it for me, though the latter characteristic is not quite as strong on the floorplate. Could just be the camera angle on those floorplate pictures.

I've run across (and acquired) a few firearms with bluing at 5% or less, especially in areas likely to be handled most frequently while carrying the rifle unslung (magazine, receiver, chamber). People that perspire heavily, like myself, are particularly hard on the exposed areas of the bluing on firearms due to the salts. Luckily I can wipe mine down and oil them when I go shooting in the summer. I would say perspiration induced corrosion and bluing stripping is one, but not the only, reasonable hypothesis.

All of the parts seem to be "early" as well, especially that nice serialized cocking knob.
Thanks Phosphorous32! I'm going to contact the auction and see if they'll get me in touch with the folks that put the item up for auction. Maybe they can provide a bit more provenance about the rifle. I'd love to hear that it was brought back by Grandpa so-n-so during the Great War but would be just as happy to hear that it was commercially purchased at Big-Box-O-Guns in 1949. Anything that might help narrow down where it came from.

The bluing doesn't bother me too terribly much, it is what it is. I'd of course rather that it wasn't completely in the white, or at least somewhat speckled with a nice patina. There aren't any apparent scratches or abrasions that I can see on the metal, the blue just isn't there above the wood line except in the stampings. Couldn't say when the grease was applied to the rifle, though it seems that it had been there for quite a while. Titanium Hammer keeps joking that I should have the grease analyzed to determine where it came from and how old it is. And testing of the couple of fir needles that were embedded in the grease too! Well, maybe he's not really joking about that! :D

All of the parts are early, there aren't any of the more modern Tula star or Izhevsk arrow in a triangle stamp on any of the pieces. Everything is stamped Izhevsk bow & arrow with the exception of the bolt (all tula parts) and the front barrel band, also tula.

This one rifle checks off quite a few boxes of things I didn't have in the collection. Deutsches Reich stamp, cocking knob with a stamped serial # (even if it's the wrong one), stock w/o sling slots, sling hangers on the magazine & front barrel band.. If only that bolt was the correct one it would have been my only original-matching m91. So close! That hunt continues ..
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by bunkysdad »

Wow, what a amazing find. I would be so happy to find one like this
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Titanium Hammer »

It was very cool to finally get to see her at the range this morning. She looks even better in person & shot extremely well too! Not sure you're going to be able to resist taking her to the range fairly often Lotema! Congrats on a sweet addition to the collection!
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

bunkysdad wrote:Wow, what a amazing find. I would be so happy to find one like this
Thanks Bunkysdad, I'm quite happy with it and it'll tide me over until I can find an all-matching, unmodified one!
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Almost_Samurai »

Wow that is a thing of beauty! The bluing missing the way it is and where doesn't seem intentional. Seems more of what was mentioned earlier, high traffic areas and perspiration. Could have been a soldier that loved cleaning his rifle, a bit too vigorously. Plus, as you stated no marks of arsenal reworking meaning that most likely is original :2cents:
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

Almost_Samurai wrote:Wow that is a thing of beauty! The bluing missing the way it is and where doesn't seem intentional. Seems more of what was mentioned earlier, high traffic areas and perspiration. Could have been a soldier that loved cleaning his rifle, a bit too vigorously. Plus, as you stated no marks of arsenal reworking meaning that most likely is original :2cents:
Thanks Almost_Samurai! It's hard to say what the story is with the bluing. Could have easily been some soldier who was forced to clean it until it was that polished because of a punishment his superior gave to him. Maybe it was polished up to serve guard duty for the Czar himself. Or maybe the Germans were going to re-blue part of it so stripped it down partially, though why they'd do that without removing it from stock is beyond me. Or maybe someone state-side decided to buff it to make it purty and then slathered tons of grease on it and left it to dry in the barn for the next 40 years.

That's some of the fun with these old rifles, trying to figure out their histories. Most of the time we just won't ever really figure it out but it's fun to guess. I like to be the first owner of the rifles when they're imported so that I'm a bit more certain about their history. Those days though are fading fast. Not a huge amount of foreign surplus left out there heading our way.
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Lotema »

Titanium Hammer wrote:It was very cool to finally get to see her at the range this morning. She looks even better in person & shot extremely well too! Not sure you're going to be able to resist taking her to the range fairly often Lotema! Congrats on a sweet addition to the collection!
Thanks TH. It was fun morning of shooting and glad to see that you put away the .22s for a day and brought out one of your m91s as well! Thought my 1905 would be the oldest rifle at the range but no, you had to bring the 1893! :lol:
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by Rongo »

I'm curious to find how the finish disapeared... A very neat find!! :vcool: :vcool:
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Re: Deutsches Reich stamped 1905 Izhevsk M91 w/Original Stock

Post by zeebill »

dolk wrote:Who stripped the bluing off the receiver and magazine (and other parts)?
This is unfortunately a good question. First off let me say if this gun had not been messed with, overly cleaned and a lot of other things to make this gun more palatable to the previous owner it would be maybe a $1000 rifle. Don't mess with the stock because it looks to be the only unmessed with part of the rifle. First off the grease is not old but rather quite fresh which doesn't hurt anything but tells me the rifle has been heavily worked on. It looks a lot like modern RIG grease on there to me. First off if you plan to shoot that rifle check the head space and especially the firing pin protrusion. It looks to be quite a bit back into the cocking piece to have the right set on the firing pin. I fear you may have pierced primers with the current setting on it.

Now the action has been wire wheel cleaned by the look of the markedly different amounts of blue is some spots and not in others. This is a great value killer I am afraid. It has been done so heavily that it is close to removing some of the markings on the barrel badge plate. The numbers on the cocking piece even though they don't match the rest of the numbers date that rifle in the era of no sling slots and the old sling set up that is on it. That bolt is considered matching by me as the last numbers are the same as the rifle and butt plate and I believe the mag plate door too. I would say the bolt and other rifle parts have been wire wheeled too judging by the look of them, especially in relation to the work done to the action's remaining blue. It is especially evident around the base of the rear sight with much blue remaining when compared with the rest of the action. Normal wear would not look like that at all.

I would have bought this rifle at the drop of a hat with not a care about that over cleaning because of the very rare sling setup and early stock. What would I say it was worth with all the over zealous cleaning and wire wheeling? At least $350 to $400+ depending on if you have a similar rifle in more not messed with condition. This is a great piece to buy and think in the future about upgrading to a nicer more original outfit. This rifle is a prime example of how to cut a rifles collector value right in half or more by well meant cleaning. It looked nice to the previous owner but not to a knowledgeable collector. Not a rifle to put in the display section as an example of what this rifle should look like I am afraid. Still a great buy if you got it for a reasonable price. Bill :o

PS I see you got away with the firing pin setting and no pierced primers. I still would check those settings for a later trip to the range. Congrats
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