The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Thought I'd share some pictures of my first Mosin purchase of the year. Last month, while I was buying a different Mosin the dealer mentioned that he had quote " another Mosin I might like" that turned out to be a very nice Remington M91 that I was able to bring home 2 days ago. It's a 1917 example that appears completely factory matching, all numbers match and all parts are Remington marked. It's condition is good to very good with no damage to any of the metal or the stock. It shows light wear that is consistent with the what you see on older sporting rifles, like it was used often but well cared for afterwards but with none of the scratches and dents that rifles that saw military service routinely have. It has a serial number in the range of those that should have been shipped to Russia prior to the revolution according to Clawson's book as well as both the provisional acceptance stamp and the accuracy stamp that the Russian inspectors at Remington would have put on it after they accepted it but it has no import marks and no other signs or traits that would indicate it ever left the U.S. It has two interesting features, a very old "duffle cut" forward of the front sling slot and what appears to be brass pins tapped into the stock to hold the barrel bands in place, something I've only seen on Finn'd M91's before. The duffle cut is reinforced with a dowel rod drilled into both pieces and some glue that long ago dried up and lost its adhesive properties. I measured the length of both the barreled receiver and the longer stock piece and they're almost exactly the same length. This makes me suspect that this rifle is one of the "lunch box" rifles that Clawson mentions in his book that Remington workers stole during production and that the stock was shortened to make it fit into a container or possible fit better under a long coat as it was smuggled out of the factory. It's certainly something I never expected to own without breaking my bank account at a auction and it goes well with the other two 1917 Remington M91's I have, one a Finn'd import and one a possible SCW example. Enjoy the pictures, I apologize for their quality but my normal outdoor picture taking sites are currently inaccessible due to a couple feet of snow and a temperature that's below zero.

It's an interesting rifle, however given that both Remington and later the US government sold these rifles for literally a few bucks or less each, nobody needed to steal one. The M91 Mosin was an unpopular rifle here in the states, our soldiers hated it when forced to use one in place of the US M1903 or 1917, and they didn't find great popularity with hunters either in a market heavy with Mauser type rifles after the war's. Remington was left in a tight spot when the Czar's government stopped paying, the sort of tight spot that can end with a company in bankruptcy. The government helped by taking some of the stock off their hands and using the rifles for training and later the North Russian expedition before selling the remainder to the public. Outfits like Bannermans ended up with parts that they constructed all sorts of theater prop guns with, and Remington disposed of the rest by trying to pass them off as hunting rifles. Remington's largest customers outside Uncle ended up being military academy's who bought half finished rifles to use as cadet rifles. The Government needed Remington to remain a viable company so they could help arm the AEF with US 1917 rifles before they set out for France, so the bailout ( and that's what it was) was beneficial to both party's. What has happened over the last 20-25 years is that collectors have gotten interested in Mosin collecting and values have shot up from $25 in 1988 to $450-$1000+ for original Remington M91's today. I strongly suspect this rifle's stock had been cut down in the 30's after someone paid the DCM $2.50 for it, and it's had the forend wood reattached in the same manner as rifles duffel cut have been fixed. For years it wasn't that hard to find M91 stocks, or stock parts, attaching the wood rather than replacing the entire stock keeps the wood black walnut and retains any Remington stamps still on it. Remington themselves could have sold it with a cut down stock, they were know to do that with parts leftover after military contracts had been filled. Take away the bands, and forend wood and this rifle looks like several Bubba chopped M91's I own or have handled. Looks like someone did a nice job on it, it should still shoot without the forend falling off. Don't read too much into the crumbling glue either, that looks like wood epoxy from the 90's, the cheap stuff that no real cabinet maker would use when proper Elmer's wood glue is available. Elmers sticks to most wood very well while the epoxys had issues with the oil 's on the wood preventing a tight bond, exactly what's happened here. The wood is a close enough match that whoever cut it down might have saved the original wood for future projects and ended up reattaching it at a later date. A job at the Remington factory would have been a plum one, skilled labor and good pay for the era, the factory had security then as it does today, you didn't just stick rifle parts under your coat and sneak off when for a small sun you could buy the whole rifle from the company. If anyone on the inside wanted to steal a rifle from Remington there were far more popular choices among the rifles being made there at the time than the Mosin. The Mauser like British Pattern 1914 comes to mind, as well as a catalog of nice sporters. Workers of that time didn't wear long camel hair overcoats like a businessman might have, too expensive and not well suited to work. They wore jackets similar to what we wear today, length extending to the hips, and lunch was carried in a bucket, or pail, or a brown bag. Try sticking a M91 barreled receiver under your current jacket and see if you can walk around like that in a public place without attracting attention. Sometimes storys like sneaking things off the job sound cool, but are bullshit then as now, stealing shit from your employer was just as frowned upon in 1917 as in 2018. I won't even get into the fact that by 1917 the Remington plant was a us government supplier and had the army guarding it, that's sentries standing guard with loaded US Springfield's.

Regardless of the history of the cut stock, it is a very nice rifle. Congrats on the purchase.

I have 6 Mosins including the finns but I still have room for a Rem.

Nice collectors rifle with modern repair to make it sellable I would say. The "Duffle Cut" as you refer to it is the regular way to fix a broken stock and not make the repair visible to the normal buyer. Otherwise a nice collectable rifle that should and more than likely would not be fired. I have more than a few in that class too. Congrats but keep in mind for the future that from the source you got that from you need to look really close in the future at what you buy there. Bill

I have yet to see a Remington in the wild. Nice rifle!

RazorBurn wrote:I have yet to see a Remington in the wild. Nice rifle!

We have sold about a half dozen of them at WV gun shows in the last few years, where have you been hiding. Don't say ST. Albans cause that ain't a gun show nor is it run right either. Monthly flea market at best! We have one now for $475 I think. You don't see them in the wild if you aren't looking all the time actively, another words effort yields results! Good Luck Bill

zeebill wrote:

RazorBurn wrote:I have yet to see a Remington in the wild. Nice rifle!

We have sold about a half dozen of them at WV gun shows in the last few years, where have you been hiding. Don't say ST. Albans cause that ain't a gun show nor is it run right either. Monthly flea market at best! We have one now for $475 I think. You don't see them in the wild if you aren't looking all the time actively, another words effort yields results! Good Luck Bill

I don't get further north than the Beckley shows. I went to the Summersville show one time like three years ago. I don't get out very often with my work schedule.

I honestly like stumbling across things. Mosin's aren't a focus of my collection, but I just tend to buy one every now and then when I find them for a good deal.

I do need to stumble north one of these days so I can meet you and Joe.

"Duffle Cut" was a typical way for service men to fit a rifle into a duffle bag to bring home. Hence the name. It wasn't for repair of stocks. Although I guess it could be.

If you remove the action and barrel, ..... it will fit into a duffle bag. The stock however was too long, so they cut them just under the rear band and when they got them home, they did just like this one and put a dowel in and spliced it together. You can see a lot of Mausers from WWII like that.

Not sure why this on is cut that way. Looks like it never made it to Russia. I think the story posted by the OP is interesting. Could be possible, but if you could prove that, then that would really be cool.

Now as far as "repair,...... I will admit repairing this 1777 French Charleville rifle that was in the end of the Revolutionary war.

It is cut under the middle band. The front of the stock was missing and it was being used as a shotgun in the late 1800's. The front stock probably was damaged and they cut it off a few inches in front of the middle band. So I took a piece of wood and made my own front piece.




Dolk

dolk wrote:"Duffle Cut" was a typical way for service men to fit a rifle into a duffle bag to bring home. Hence the name. It wasn't for repair of stocks. Although I guess it could be.

If you remove the action and barrel, ..... it will fit into a duffle bag. The stock however was too long, so they cut them just under the rear band and when they got them home, they did just like this one and put a dowel in and spliced it together. You can see a lot of Mausers from WWII like that.

Not sure why this on is cut that way. Looks like it never made it to Russia. I think the story posted by the OP is interesting. Could be possible, but if you could prove that, then that would really be cool.

Now as far as "repair,...... I will admit repairing this 1777 French Charleville rifle that was in the end of the Revolutionary war.

It is cut under the middle band. The front of the stock was missing and it was being used as a shotgun in the late 1800's. The front stock probably was damaged and they cut it off a few inches in front of the middle band. So I took a piece of wood and made my own front piece.




Dolk

Do you still have this? I would love to see more of it and hear more about it.

zeebill wrote:Congrats but keep in mind for the future that from the source you got that from you need to look really close in the future at what you buy there. Bill

Thanks zeebil, I'm really not concerned with this dealers credibility though. I paid a very reasonable price considering what it is, despite the cut stock. The dealer is a very well respected Japanese collector on several forums including Gunboards but Mosin's just aren't his specialty. I've gotten several nice pieces off him including the Japanese trainer M91 I posted in my introduction post.

dolk wrote:"Duffle Cut" was a typical way for service men to fit a rifle into a duffle bag to bring home. Hence the name. It wasn't for repair of stocks. Although I guess it could be.

If you remove the action and barrel, ..... it will fit into a duffle bag. The stock however was too long, so they cut them just under the rear band and when they got them home, they did just like this one and put a dowel in and spliced it together. You can see a lot of Mausers from WWII like that.

Not sure why this on is cut that way. Looks like it never made it to Russia. I think the story posted by the OP is interesting. Could be possible, but if you could prove that, then that would really be cool.

Now as far as "repair,...... I will admit repairing this 1777 French Charleville rifle that was in the end of the Revolutionary war.

It is cut under the middle band. The front of the stock was missing and it was being used as a shotgun in the late 1800's. The front stock probably was damaged and they cut it off a few inches in front of the middle band. So I took a piece of wood and made my own front piece.




Dolk

I guess I used the phrase duffle cut in my post as more of a eye catching phrase that most of us would recognize then I should have. I'm aware what it really means though since I have a duffle cut K98k in my small German collection and knew going into the purchase that the cut was a repair of some kind. Nice 1777 Charleville flintlock, there was a time when I wanted one of those as well as a Brown Bess to compliment the Civil War muskets I inherited from my father but they are scarce and the prices were well out of my reach at the time.

ssg_lord wrote: Nice 1777 Charleville flintlock, there was a time when I wanted one of those as well as a Brown Bess to compliment the Civil War muskets I inherited from my father but they are scarce and the prices were well out of my reach at the time.

Yes, the prices are really up there now. It is the reason I stopped collecting them years ago and stepped over the Civil War firearms ane went into Bolt actions. It is how I got started in Mosins.

I have about 12 Muskets in the safe. I only show two of them. This 1777 and my favorite a 1763 Charleville. I don't talk much about them as they open too many eyes. Most of them are scheduled to go to a couple museums when I die. I'd do it now other then doing it now would probably kill me now. Hard to justify putting out $2,000 plus for a rifle (at that time) and still trying to put food on the table at the same time.

The two Charleville's are on my website still (I think).

Dolk

dolk wrote:

ssg_lord wrote: Nice 1777 Charleville flintlock, there was a time when I wanted one of those as well as a Brown Bess to compliment the Civil War muskets I inherited from my father but they are scarce and the prices were well out of my reach at the time.

Yes, the prices are really up there now. It is the reason I stopped collecting them years ago and stepped over the Civil War firearms ane went into Bolt actions. It is how I got started in Mosins.

I have about 12 Muskets in the safe. I only show two of them. This 1777 and my favorite a 1763 Charleville. I don't talk much about them as they open too many eyes. Most of them are scheduled to go to a couple museums when I die. I'd do it now other then doing it now would probably kill me now. Hard to justify putting out $2,000 plus for a rifle (at that time) and still trying to put food on the table at the same time.

The two Charleville's are on my website still (I think).

Dolk

Wow took a look at your page, the two flintlock are absolutely gorgeous.