1916 Berthier French

[Burrhead]

I was at my favorite watering hole and found this today for $200. The action is full of old grease and the only numbers I found on her (Bolt and Stock) seem to match. The bore is dark but looks like dirt I could see rifling down there and the crown looks good so I gave the shop some down and I'll pick it later when I have thing ready to shoot her. I sure like the old ones.
I think it's worth the $200. What do you guys think.
Burrhead

1916 Ber Lebel.jpg

[Fledge]

I think you did good at $200. Looks to be in good shape.

[target]

That's a good deal. Lee makes pretty affordable dies and the 5 round clips are not hard to find.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Worth more than 200, French or US made?

[Burrhead]

JYD I'm not sure as yet, I'll know more when I get her home and cleaned up. But ya I thought it was a good price.
Burrhead

[desdem12]

Holy moly. I would love any French at 200. Nice.

[Type99]

Great price! I happily paid $330 for a similar rifle last year

[Burrhead]

I brought the Breathier home today and started taking her apart to clean the rifle up. It is really full of old grease from storage. The only serial numbers I have found are on the bolt hand and the bottom of the mag well, didn't see any serial on the receiver and I haven't found an import stamp either..
The mfg date is 1917. So far the biggest problem is the rear sling swivel. It appears to be made to swivel but it's froze solid. I have this in some penitrating oil trying to clean it up. The finish is in pretty good shape. The bore is another thing entirely. I will have a lot of cleaning to get this to the point I'll feel ok firing the rifle. I'll try and post some pictures later.
Burrhead

[Fledge]

Looking forward to the updates. Keep us posted...

[Type99]

On mine the serial isnt visible on barrel or receiver. The barrel number is under the handguard and the reciever is below the wood line. These m16 rifles with the upper handguard are to my understanding postwar rebuilds and sold into greece and other balkan states in the 1920s. Should be interesting to see what you find as you clean her up

[entropy]

Nice find!

[websterz]

How's the headspace?

[Burrhead]

Head Space is an interesting question, But I don't have the gauges to check it. I would assume sense it's a rimmed case and the head is very similar to the 348 that I might be able to use this cartridge's gauges.
Burrhead

[websterz]

You know what happens when you assume? I'll make you a great deal since the 8mm Lebel gauges are not in huge demand. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

[Burrhead]

I haven't found any factory ammo available locally so I'll probably buy some Priv on line. My brass I am used was formed from 348 Winchester I had on hand from making 41 Swiss Vetterli. I made 8 and fire formed them last week-end in my 1916 dated Bethier rifle. I used 14 grains of Trail Boss and the cases looked good coming out of the rifle. They didn't group well but I wasn't expecting much with this load. Next outing I'm using IMR-3031. I'll start with the minimum in the Lee manual and work up. From reading I've done on line this powder seems to be the closest to the burn rate of the powder used in military ammo. I'm making more brass now and I have about 30 more available for conversion.
Burrhead

[awalker1829]

Privi sells Lebel brass in bags of 100. I don't know if the info in the manual is the same as what they put in the sheets that go with the dies-if it is, it's on the low end, especially for N proofed guns. Resized brass can be safely used in the Berthier and other French rifles that are magazine fed with clips, but not in the M1886 M93 if the magazine is used. If the magazine is used, the Privi brass is essential as it has the catch groove for the spire point.

[Burrhead]

I made a total of 22 cases and I started loading them today. Found something interesting between the load sheet provided with the die set from Lee and the Lee Second Edition of Modern Reloading. The load charts are different, the Minimum Load on most of the powders listed went up and in some instances the max load did too. Powders listed are a little different as well.
Anyway I loaded the new cases with Trail Boss for there first trip to the range. the ones I shot last week I took 4 of these and loaded 1 grain above the minimum for IMR-3031 off the sheet provided with the dies. After loading these I came up to my computer ti put them down in my Excel sheet and looked at the manual. I loaded .8 grains below the book. So beware this was changed for a reason, what I have no idea.
Burrhead

[awalker1829]

Sounds like the higher loads are for Balle N cartridges. One thing that has to be understood about the 8mm x 50R cartridge is that there were five different versions. Balle M is the original cartridge and had a rounded nose bullet that permitted safe usage of the tubular magazine. Balle D introduced the spitzer bullet and the need for the catch groove in the case for safe usage in the tubular magazine. Balle N retained the spitzer bullet but the powder charge was increased and the chamber diameter increased-this was the ammunition adopted for the Hotchkiss machine gun. Some existing infantry rifles were modified to use Balle N. That required reaming the chambers and proofing of the new chamber and barrel on each modified gun. Balle T was a tracer cartridge and Balle P was an armor piercing cartridge.

The current ammunition manufactured by Privi appears to be Balle D. Compare a case fire formed in a gun proofed for Balle N and you will see significant differences in the location of the shoulder of the case.

[target]

I sort of think that my rifle made in 1917 is chambered for Balle N but they forgot to stamp it as such. The shoulder of my cases is considerably different from that of freshly sized brass. Who knows though.

I don't make powderpuff loads for my rifle but I don't make the meanest military machine gun load for it either so I am not too worried about it.

[Burrhead]

One of the few issues I have with Lee is the fact the company doesn't supply enough information with the dies or the load manual. I would think that saying what version of the cartridge they are presenting should be important to them as it is to me. Anyway the IMR-3031 load max charge is the same for both the sheet and the manual. Now some of the others are like night and day. With something this old I start low and take my time as I work my way up in pressure. According to Wiki the Balle D was loaded with a 198 gr bullet at 2400FPS and none of the 200 gr loads in the manual approach this velocity.
Burrhead