The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

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martin08
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The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by martin08 »

Per request by a member of another forum, I have taken some pictures of what makes the Bannerman Mosin Nagant tick.

Beginning with a little history, in 1914 the United States was first contracted by the Czar of Imperial Russia to build the Mosin Nagant Model 1891. Remington Armory and New England Westinghouse received several orders through 1917 for a total of 3.7 million rifles. However, in March of 1917, the Czar was overthrown and many of the guns remained undelivered to Russia. As well, the United States Government contracted Remington and New England Westinghouse to keep building the M91 through 1918, thus retaining the skilled workforce and allowing the companies to remain solvent.

Some of these M91 rifles were utilized in the American Expeditionary Forces which were sent to Russia from 1918 to 1920. But many of the guns remained stateside. Some were used for troop training, some were converted to the approximate dimensions of the US M1903 rifle for Cadet training purposes, others were sold on the civilian market or to surplus arms brokers such as Francis Bannerman.

Link to Bannerman's Castle (armory on Pollepel Island): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollepel_Island


Link to Bannerman Rifle article on mosinnagant.net: http://www.mosinnagant.net/global%20mos ... nerman.asp

In the early 1920's, Bannerman sought to capture some of the American sporting rifle market, and converted many U.S. M91 rifles from cal. 7.62X54mm to the more accessible .30-'06 ammunition. The most commonly encountered sporter conversion is found with the barrel cut to 21.5", the stock cut just forward of the rear barrel band, and the bolt handle slightly turned down. A much less common version is found in infantry length, and will be the model which is presented in this article.

Aside from the barrel and stock lengths of the Sporter and Infantry length rifles, the major features of the caliber conversion are the same. Remington Armory barreled actions were used for the conversions in general, with a very occasionally encountered New England Westinghouse. Parts from both arsenals were utilized, as well as some odd small parts from Bannerman's extensive military surplus inventory.

The following picture shows a standard New England Westinghouse M91 with the Remington Infantry length Bannerman conversion underneath. Parts of the standard New England Westinghouse will also be used later for comparison pictures of the conversion features.

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The major identifying feature of the Bannerman is the chamber end of the barrel which is shortened by 3/4" (see comparison). Hence the original serial number, year of manufacture, and a portion of the word ARMORY are absent from the barrel. The left side of the barrel is prominently stamped with CAL. .30 '06 to identify the newly cut chamber dimensions.


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The following pics display the stark differences between the Russian and U.S. ammunition cartridge. These differences will help to explain the action alterations which were needed to compensate for the dimensions of the base (rim), body, neck, bullet and overall length.

Here it is interesting to note that the .30-'06 bullet is designed to be fired through a bore with a land diameter of .300" and grooves at .308". The Mosin Nagant bore is .300" across the lands with grooves at .311". The .30-'06 bullet has a diameter of .308", and the 7.62X54mm bullet is .311". Though the bore groove and bullet diameters differ by .003", the bore land diameters are the same. So it can be said that the .30-'06 bullet is 'compatible enough' to be used in the Mosin Nagant bore.

Chamber pressure for the .30-'06 is approximately 60,000 PSI.

Chamber pressure for the 7.62X54mm is approximately 57,000 PSI.

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Though it was very difficult to photograph the chamber face, I did my best to show a slot which is machined into the inner left side of the receiver ring, just behind the chamber and the threaded end of the barrel. This channel would presumably be for the purpose of greater capacity for gas escape in the event of a ruptured case. Standard chamber for the rimmed Russian round is pictured second, no gas escape channel is observed.

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The bolt head on a Bannerman is commonly found with a blackened finish. Though most of the finish is diminished on my example, some of the black remains. A ring is welded inside the lip of the original bolt face to accommodate for the smaller rimless cartridge base. The extractor channel is also cut deeper to enable the extractor to grab the smaller diameter base. Notice a deeper machined channel opposite of the extractor. This channel corresponds with the gas escape channel which is machined inside the receiver ring. Bannerman bolt on right.

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To accommodate for feeding and ejecting the differing cartridge dimensions, the length of the magazine interrupter/ejector is shortened by 1/4" to allow it to rest further inside the receiver channel - thus allowing the ejector portion to better contact the smaller body diameter of the shell casing. The 'leg' portion which acts as a magazine feed interrupter is also shortened by 3/16", presumably to allow for the rear of the cartridge to sit higher in the magazine stack, so the bolt will pick it up on closing at a flatter angle from the magazine when released by the interrupter to the feed position.

The flat feeding position of the .30-'06 cartridge is easily observed when compared to the standard 7.62X54mm.


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To allow for the shorter length interrupter to still slip inside the notch in the top of the magazine for control of individual cartridge feed, the receiver below the interrupter/ejector slot has a portion ground away for clearance, and it is bent inwardly.

The magazine well portion of the receiver is also relieved by grinding to allow for the wider dimension of the reshaped magazine side plates. This is best shown in the comparison pictures (Bannerman on right)



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Since the interrupter allows the shells to feed from a higher and 'flatter' position, and the .30-'06 cartridge is of a much greater overall length, the front rib and feed ramp of the magazine is relieved in the center (cut away) to allow the nose of the bullet to pass when feeding to the chamber. The magazine side plates are flattened (crimp eliminated) to allow for clearance when using the forward-necked body of the .30-'06 cartridges.

Note that the right side plate of my magazine was altered and re-drilled for spot weld attachment, but oddly the spot welds were never applied, leaving the plate to open up toward the front. When inserted inside the receiver, this gap closes and does not appear to affect function.


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On the Bannerman, the trigger pin is staked in place. The rear barrel band is from an Argentine Mauser. The front band is from, well, I don't know! The head of the cleaning rod is cut off. And the stock is from a New England Westinghouse, with the English Contract cartouche. It is unusual to also see a U.S. Flaming Bomb on a New England Westinghouse stock.

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In conclusion, it is quite evident that the Mosin Nagant is a poor platform at best to convert to the .30-'06 cartridge. But Francis Bannerman proved that it could be done. Collectors find the Bannerman conversions as an interesting variant. Shooters have wildly varying opinions of the potential safety issues which arise from the slightly higher pressure of the .30-'06 round, and the forward chamber position with thinner barrel housing dimensions. Some say it is perfectly fine, some won't shoot it at all, and others attest that mild loads are best. Searches for the 'catastrophic failure' of the Bannerman result in no verifiable hits.

Some love 'em. Some hate 'em. Many who don't own one, or have never fired one, have strong opinions. Many who do own one will fire them, and some won't. I have not fired mine, but mostly because of its outstanding condition and the risk of a cracked stock is not worth the reward of firing. Would I fire one? Probably.

But in any positive or negative light in which the Bannerman conversion is viewed, it is assuredly an interesting footnote in American Mosin Nagant history. At the very least, I hope this article has shed some light on the mechanical aspects of the Bannerman .30-'06 conversion itself.

Thanks for looking and listening.
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Re: The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by steelbuttplate »

Very interesting and well done article :thumbsup: One thing I'm wondering is what does shooting a .308 bullet thru a .311 bore do to the ballistics? Is it enough to let the excess pressure escape, and how accurate would these Frankenstines be? Does anybody have one on here that they shoot? I mean somebody besides Zeebill or Jim that can still see good enough to hit a bullseye :chuckles: Thanks for your research and time spent......SBP
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lethe
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Re: The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by lethe »

Thank you for the write up and pictures. I had never seen/heard of a 06' conversion in a mosin before.
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ffuries
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Re: The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by ffuries »

Most of us have heard of the Bannerman conversion, but have never seen one in person (I am in this boat). Have heard/read about the conversion, but have never seen a side-by-side comparison. What you have done here is awesome, and for me explains it from A to Z. Thank you "Martin08".

I for one think this should be a "Sticky" so it's easier to find.
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Re: The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by SA1911a1 »

Thank you. I found that very interesting and informative. Something to be on the lookout for in the dusty pawns.
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Post by qz2026 »

Thanks Martin for the write-up. I've got one of the carbine models and it is very nicely done. I have heard all the stories about these being unsafe to shoot as well but, as you, I have never heard of an actual mishap from shooting one. I haven't shot mine yet and don't know if I will. Maybe with commercial loads or a loaded down version. I've got plenty of rifles of all calibers to shoot if I desire. My biggest issue was when I purchased it and had to book the rifle in my C&R Log. Since there was no serial number on the shank and obviously no import stampings I just used the s/n on the bolt. Again, nice write-up. :thumbsup:
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Post by WeldonHunter »

Thanks Matt, as usual a great write-up. Every time I see one of these with the cut down barrel and Remington no less I cringe. Not for the safety asspect but for the historical aspect though these have a historical aspect all their own, it would still be nice to see that as an untouched Remington. Different times, different mindset.
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Post by Sirex »

Great thread :thumbsup:
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Post by Longcolt44 »

Great article as well as the pictures. Thanks.
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Re: The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by Darryl »

Martin,
Weren't most of the Bannerman carbines rifles that the US bought to keep Remington from going under when Russia decided not to pay for them. Then they were sent to the Army and then sold to Bannerman. But I don't think they were ever military rifles.

They were purchased from Remington and stored in a US arsenal. Then sold to Bannerman. But they never were technically a military rifle.



They were technically civilian rifles, cut down to carbine length and made into 30-06 hunting rifles.

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martin08
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Re: The Bannerman Mosin Nagant - Dissected

Post by martin08 »

Correct. The Sporter model was introduced for civilian sales. However, Bannerman did have hopes for military sale of the Infantry model.

Interesting note on the Infantry model, from Kevin Carney's article on mosinnagant.net. :

The basic Mosin conversions were offered two ways. One was a sporter version with cut down stock and bent bolt. The other was a military version which, consisted of a full stock and straight bolt...

...Although, the military model was probably set up for export, no known contracts were done. It was interesting that one lot of 200 military models were sold to the American Fascist Party in the 1930's and as World War II broke out, the American Fascist Party offered the rifle to the CT State Police for the war effort.
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Post by Darryl »

So the bottom line (on most of the carbines is...) they did not bubba a military surplus rifle to make the Bannerman carbine. They used a rifle that was a military "style" rifle that was an "over run" to make them "sellable" to the sportsmen.

Your collection is "never done" when it comes to Mosins. Many different "kinds" of rifles. A Bannerman is a part of a Mosin collection.

Very nice rifle! Very nice information also! :thumbsup:

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Post by qz2026 »

:pointup:
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Post by JagdPanther »

Thanks for posting this! I love reading about mosins of all sorts. My only question is as someone above posted how is the accuracy on one of these? I have never seen one in person have read a bit about them but this eexplained it much better than anything I have read. Thanks!
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Post by Darryl »

Added to the information pages. Very well written and informative.

http://russian-mosin-nagant.com/Bannerman/
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Post by gopedxr7 »

very nice! thanks for sharing.

what i find the most interesting is the amount of work needed to do the conversion. did it really pay to convert to another caliber in the end after all the labor and tooling was made. my guess is they bought these for really cheap on surplus to make it worthwhile to do such a conversion.
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Post by WeldonHunter »

gopedxr7 wrote:very nice! thanks for sharing.

what i find the most interesting is the amount of work needed to do the conversion. did it really pay to convert to another caliber in the end after all the labor and tooling was made. my guess is they bought these for really cheap on surplus to make it worthwhile to do such a conversion.
At the time this was done, almost 100 years ago, it did pay to convert them to 30.06 and other more widely available calibers because the 7.62x54R round was not readily available if at all and what was available was probably surplus full metal jacket ammo, not the best hunting round.
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Post by entropy »

Great treatise on the '06 Bannerman conversions, martin08! :thumbsup:

Man, that's a lot of work for very little return. You'd think that these would have been more popular in the 20's and early 30's, when there were very few Mauser sporter/conversions done, (that would be after WWII...) they had to be fairly inexpensive then, and '06 ammo was plentiful in surplus and commercially loaded. You'd think every deer camp would've had one in the rack, not unlike after WWII when there was at least one Mauser and often an Arisaka (in .257 Roberts Improved) in most deer camps.

The bottom of the Bannerman barrel where it meets (or should I say doesn't) meet the reciever.... :shock: :big shock:
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Post by bunkysdad »

When someone wants to know any details about the conversion and how everything works they only need to look here. This is a excellent writeup on a beautiful rifle. You found another nice one.
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Post by gopedxr7 »

WeldonHunter wrote:
gopedxr7 wrote:very nice! thanks for sharing.

what i find the most interesting is the amount of work needed to do the conversion. did it really pay to convert to another caliber in the end after all the labor and tooling was made. my guess is they bought these for really cheap on surplus to make it worthwhile to do such a conversion.
At the time this was done, almost 100 years ago, it did pay to convert them to 30.06 and other more widely available calibers because the 7.62x54R round was not readily available if at all and what was available was probably surplus full metal jacket ammo, not the best hunting round.


i am surprised with the amount of these riffles on the market at the time no company in the US made hunting 7.62x54r for them. Westinghouse and Remmington made the rounds for the russian empire and had the tooling to meet the demand of the market.

there was the .44 russian round that was popular as well for a while in the US. but i guess the 30-06 was just that popular for rifle
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