Antique M91 Carcano in 6.5X54ms?

[martin08]

I didn't have a Carcano Long Rifle in the collection, so yesterday I added an antique (1894) Model 91 Terni in what appears to be in Mannlicher-Schonauer caliber of 6.5x54mm, stamped across the top barrel flat. I have not done a casting of the chamber to confirm. There are no markings that I can locate to confirm Austro-Hungarian or Greek influence on the apparent chamber change from 6.5X52mm, so I'm not sure what to make of the stamp on the barrel shank.... ???





This rifle is splendidly refinished, non-import marked. Bluing is high luster on the metal, with what appears to be the original pairing of the barrel and receiver. The crossed rifle stamp is a bonus. Not sure what to make of the receiver ring stamps - hoping to learn.










The beech stock has great color and uniform grain. I forgot to picture the sanded matching number on the stock, and the 3/4" chip behind the receiver tang, which is the only major detraction on the gun. The chip is not deep, and shouldn't interfere with firing.










Bolt is of the updated extractor style, and not matching. Bore (not pictured) will need some scrubbing as it appears encrusted in cosmoline (?), but rifling appears deep.





The shop owner had it out for $175, and we agreed on $150 plus tax. So I couldn't say no. It's my best looking Carcano, thus far, and a finely crafted gun overall. Thanks for looking, fellas.

[Sgt. Rob]

That one is light years better than the ones I saw at Cabelas Sunday. And $9.00 cheaper to boot. You got a really nice one there Martin08. My first guess is Greek Provenance??? on the caliber, but I do not know for sure.

Semper Fi, Rob

[Greasemonkey]

Wow, it looks new compared to mine . I read somewhere, the armours opened the chambers on the Greek models to allow both the Italian 6.5x52 MC and the Austrian designed 6.5x54MS ammo to both be used, because Greece had one caliber and a bunch of Italian capture stuff. But it would not work the other way around.

I don't know about it, but back then I'm sure anything was possible, just thought I'd see if you heard anything like that.

It maybe plausible
6.5x52MC overall case length 2.07 in
6.5x54MS overall case length 2.11 in

only .03 diff in overall case length.

[desdem12]

Really nice Martin. Best looking 91 i have ever seen. The austrians did rechamber them to that caliber after capture in WWI. Sweet example for sure. I have been semi looking for a long rifle for a while and have run across zero around here, but the carbines are everywhere.

[martin08]

Yes, the 6.5X52MC should be able to be utilized without a problem at all.

I've got this one posted up on Gunboards, as well, for the experts to mull over. Greece, Austria-Hungary, and England all had reason to throat the chamber, as the 6.5X54MS was quite available before and around the time of the First World War.

There is no immediate evidence as to where/why/when this one received the caliber stamp on the barrel. I'll get back to you if something definitive arises.

[WeldonHunter]

That's another nice one Matt. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

[desdem12]

I think maybe i have seen where it might have been marked for a contract rifle for greece. I am not sure where i saw this but i have to go do "stuff" and i won't be back till later, but that might give you a direction.
Maybe Bolt actions of the world but not sure.

[martin08]

That's another nice one Matt. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

This one was at a local gunshop, and on the bottom of a pile (literally) of about fifteen rifles that were acquired in an estate clearance. I saw just the hint of the beech stock, and asked if I could un-pile the Savages and Winchesters. It survived without too many scratches.

[WeldonHunter]

That's another nice one Matt. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

This one was at a local gunshop, and on the bottom of a pile (literally) of about fifteen rifles that were acquired in an estate clearance. I saw just the hint of the beech stock, and asked if I could un-pile the Savages and Winchesters. It survived without too many scratches.

Oh god I cringed when I read "on the bottom of a pile (literally)". Man to some people these are just a comodity.

[pacanis]

I just came back from the LGS. Not twenty minutes before I left to go there I was enjoying the pics of this rifle. I'm in there for five minutes and he walks into the back room and comes out with one of these, 1918 made. It arrived this morning on consignment. Funny how those things seem to happen.

[martin08]

Feedback from around the net (and what should have been obvious):

The caliber stamp was made here in the U.S. Had it been done in Europe, it would have had a comma instead of a decimal point, i.e. 6,5 X 54.

Obviously the gun has been here for quite a while - no import stamps, and someone has spent some coin and effort to make it pretty. But I'm getting the feeling that I'm glad I only spent $150 on it, instead of north of $300 where most antique Carcanos are valued.

[desdem12]

Yep you are right there. i didn't think of that.

[MN Fan]

Martin, for some reason, this one caught my attention. I just spent two hours reading up on the Carcano rifle and there is definitely at least one in my future. The history is documented really well and it was interesting reading.

I did find a few things:

The PG stamp is the initials of the bolt designer. The receiver was designed after the bolt.
The "C" stamp is the barrel blank letter code. (What variances there were, I haven't found yet)
The crossed rifles (very cool stamp btw) designates these were set aside for troop's better marksmen to choose from. They aren't necessarily sniper rifle designations, but believed to simply have a tighter bore.
More than likely, this rifle was rechambered in Greece due to the availability of 6.5X54 ammo. Though the comment in regards to use of a comma instead of a period for a decimal point is correct in typed and written text (mostly since the use of electronic text), its not the case with rifle stamps. (I assume it is much easier to make a "." stamp than a "," stamp.) For example, an original caliber stamping on this Carcano:



Not sure if any of that information is useful or even correct for that matter. Just what I learned in the last few hours.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Nice One Martin, I missed this earlier, Carcano's are finally starting to get some respect from collectors and shooters.

[desdem12]

Not sure if that is original Cliff. Is it was a 8mm it would have a S stamp and not the caliber. I think that was stamped when imported somewhere like the 7.35 stampings on the 91/38s.

[MN Fan]

I shouldn't have used the word "original", but you are probably right either way. Its just that everything I read points to the 6.5X54 being rechambered in Greece. Since it seems like they rechambered every Carcano they had, then they may not have necessarily stamped them too. But then I kept running across images of decimal point stamps with a period, even in European countries. So maybe it rechambered in Greece at the time, but then stamped later when it was eventually imported? Not sure of course lol.

Its been interesting reading the history though.

[martin08]

Hmm... more fat to chew on.

But regardless, the gun has been polished and blued. By whom? And when? Pre-68, anyway. And the caliber stamp was made after the rebluing, as evidenced by the halo effect around the numbers.

[MN Fan]

I'm not too sure about the stamp yet. I see the halo effect you mention, but I also saw the same effect on a .22 I recently re-blued:



This one of course had the stamp in the metal first, I re-blued it only recently. I did try several times to get the blue to take better around the stamp, but this is the best I could get it. In my mind, I am not convinced (yet) that the caliber stamp wasn't placed there prior to entering the US.

Also, since there is blue in the bottom of the stamp, I'm pretty sure your Carcano was re-blued after stamping.

Either way, its been fun researching this one. Thanks for posting it up

[Junk Yard Dog]

These rifles were very rarely treated so nice by US bubbas, they tended to hack the rifle pretty bad. I would guess it was being used for competition shooting in Italy maybe? Another mystery that may never be solved.

[WeldonHunter]

I'm not too sure about the stamp yet. I see the halo effect you mention, but I also saw the same effect on a .22 I recently re-blued:



This one of course had the stamp in the metal first, I re-blued it only recently. I did try several times to get the blue to take better around the stamp, but this is the best I could get it. In my mind, I am not convinced (yet) that the caliber stamp wasn't placed there prior to entering the US.

Also, since there is blue in the bottom of the stamp, I'm pretty sure your Carcano was re-blued after stamping.

Either way, its been fun researching this one. Thanks for posting it up

How did you reblue that MN? Was it wipe on cold blue? If so that's a different kind of blueing than what they do at an arsenal or during the manufacturing process which is most likely hot blueing or one of the other chemical processes that are more comprehensive. Cold blueing is basically only a surface treatment and doesn't penetrate the metals pores very deeply but hot or one of the other chemical processes blueing is a very deep penetrating process. That may be why the Halo effect is still visable on your rifle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel)