Mosin Vs Mauser

[FR0STY54R]

Ah, the eternal struggle of YouTube gun channels everywhere lol, anyway, was just looking through the fifth edition of Mauser Military Rifles of the world and saw this picture of Mauser Model 71 bolts. I have talked before with you guys about the Mosin Nagant's lineage and the consensus was that everybody was stealing ideas from everybody else and that the Mosin was particularly inspired by the French Lebel in several aspects. Maybe it's just me but this Mauser bolt looks eerily similar to a Mosin bolt

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1416327750.043286.jpg

More so than the Lebel

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1416327763.841146.jpg

[zeebill]

What came first the chicken or the egg? About in the same venue I would say!

[jones0430]

Yes, you are essentially correct. However, the Mauser bolt design made a gigantic leap in another direction. The result was a much more engineered and smooth action. It is also more difficult to manufacture. For a more highly industrialized nation, the Mauser action makes sense as far as intent and capability is concerned. For the less industrialized, the Mosin Nagant is the answer.

[Junk Yard Dog]

All anyone had to base their new smokeless powder rifle on was the Lebel at that time, everyone stole from it one way or another. The Mosin bolt has clear French influence in it's design, and remember, the first Mosins were made in France at Chatellerault.

[zeebill]

All anyone had to base their new smokeless powder rifle on was the Lebel at that time, everyone stole from it one way or another. The Mosin bolt has clear French influence in it's design, and remember, the first Mosins were made in France at Chatellerault.

Whoops you missed something! The Mosins in France were made in 1892 and Tula was making them in 1891 I believe. Also a lot of the things included in the Mosin look very Berdan like if you check up on them. The original start for the Berdan which preceded the Mosin was before the France made their smokeless powder creation. Even though the Berdan's were originally Black powder I believe they were strong enough to tolerate smokeless powder. Old Hiram Berdan was holder of many varied patents and he built things strong which is what the Russians needed back then and now too. Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

Check the early French BPC rifles, you will see were the bolt design of the Lebel comes from, the French always had a very Not Invented Here attitude toward other countries firearms designs. This is why some of the more odd looking French creations were produced. Here in the US we never had a problem taking others designs. Our 1795 musket was a copy of French muskets, the Krag wasn't ours, and of course the M1903 and it's Mauser heritage, starting with the M1 Garand we went our own way. The Berdans were not strong enough to handle smokeless powder, it had nothing to do with the design, and everything to do with metallurgy. The steel used was never made to take smokeless powder pressures, and at the time of it's production the properties of the steel itself were not yet fully understood. This was not an issue at the time as nobody had anticipated smokeless powder or the pressures it would produce. All the first smokeless powder rifles were experimental, the 1886 Lebel, 1888 Commission rifle, the Mosin less so because it followed in the footsteps of the previous rifles and learned from them. The early rifle designers didn't just invent the rifles, they invented the steel used in them also. New mixes, new methods of heat treatment, trial and error, can you imagine what it must have been like to be handed this new powder and told to come up with a receiver design that would take it without any modern testing equipment? Paul Mauser lost an eye testing one of his designs, an autloading rifle if I recall, it was dangerous work.

[zeebill]

Dupont and the way they made their powder along the banks of the Brandywine lost many people with the manufacture of both Black Powder and later smokeless powder. You talk about dangerous now that was dangerous. When you design a building in such a way to figure which way it would blow and merely assume that it is going to blow at sometime. Now that is dangerous! Want to read a long but interesting and eye opening book sometime find a copy of Behind the Nylon Curtain which is the story of Dupont and how they survived all these years. It was not without hoodwinking the US government very often and taking tax payers money for sure. History is very entertaining and will explain many of the things we take for granted these days and will show you just how it very often repeats itself. Bill

[Darryl]

Hercules Powder Works, Hercules, Calif.

In the first 38 years of the California Power Works’ operations in Hercules, 59 lives were taken by explosions. The nitroglycerine house and the building in which the dynamite was produced were the primary locations of the blasts. In February, 1908, 24 men were killed in a single explosion. This was the largest explosion in the plants history.


California Powder Works, Santa Cruz, Calif

The great explosion of 1898 started in the smokeless powder plant at 5:15 PM on April 26. Santa Cruz was rocked by a series of heavy explosions which killed 13 men at the powder works and injured 25 more. Windows were broken in Santa Cruz, and flaming debris fell on Mission Hill. Many buildings used to house company employees were set afire and a community effort was required by residents of Santa Cruz to prevent fires from reaching powder magazines closer to the city. The explosion caused apprehension among Santa Cruz residents about the safety of operating the powder works so close to the city. Santa Cruz County closed the powder works school and required powder works employee housing facilities to be vacated. California Powder Works became a DuPont subsidiary in 1903,[8] and operated under the DuPont name after 1906.

[zeebill]

I worked for 36 years at Dupont Chambers Works in Deepwater, NJ and the next plant up the river Carneys Point, dealt with Nitro cellulose and when it blew up they moved it out of NJ because of the fear it would blow again. One of my neighbors down the street from the house was killed at a very young age in that explosion too. Goex black powder plant has moved and blown up so many times I don't have any idea where it is located now. Elephant Brand black powder has also had explosions at their plant too.

You can tour the Brandywine River powder works of Dupont (relax they don't make it anymore) and the rest of that area where the family actually lived. I worked there for a very short time as a tour guide many years ago. It is really a great tour if you are ever in the Wilmington, Delaware area I highly recommend it. It is a great tour for the family and will show the way things were done and how the family lived in the early days of Dupont. The family no longer owns or runs the company for the most part now and in my thoughts working there the company has gone downhill steadily since the family backed out of running things. I do hope they survive though as I really look forward to my pension check each month. Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

Don't worry Bill, you can always get a job if the check stops coming, the North Korean rocket force is looking for test pilots, that doesn't sound dangerous in the least

[Darryl]

Don't worry Bill, you can always get a job if the check stops coming, the North Korean rocket force is looking for test pilots, that doesn't sound dangerous in the least

And they have a "free" burial program too!