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UPDATED INFORMATION 1-1-2019: from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:37 pm
by neal45
UPDATED INFORMATION 1-1-2019:
I'm updating the 91/38 database with totals through December 31, 2018
I have been building the database for about 8 years now. It was started just to keep up with prices and had a short description of the 91/38s to keep them apart. As I became more interested in 91/38s, I started adding more data.
In some for sale ads and threads, it is hard to determine all relevant information. I have totaled and categorized what I can see from the photos and learn from the descriptions and sometimes correspondence.
Total M91/38s currently in the database - 152
Dates: 1891 – 1920
Arsenals:
Chatellerault – 9 - 6% of the total
Sestroryetsk – 14 - 10%
Tula – 30 - 21%
Izhevsk – 81 - 61%
Remington – 2 - 1%
New England Westinghouse – 1 - 1%
15 Izhevsks have the Cossack Ka3 mark – 10% of the total
Stock types:
There are at least 55 91/38s with M91 modified stocks. Of these,
14 (25%) have no crossbolts and 4 (7%) have wooden crossbolts. The remainder are steel (69%). That is a very high percentage without the steel crossbolt upgrade that began in 1909. On the other hand, regular M91s with wooden crossbolts or no crossbolt are uncommon. All 91/38 M91 modified stocks I have seen have the M44 type folding bayonet groove.
There are at least 75 with M38 or M44 stocks. Some of the stocks are "Czech" (new, blonde stocks) but I only started keeping up with that recently.
Bayonets:
I have seen two M91/38s still with a bayonet but it looks like most (all?) of them had a M44 type bayonet earlier in their lives.
Single digit number:
Many 91/38s have an odd single digit number on the barrel shank. I did not record the number when I started the database but of the ones I have, thirty one are marked with a 1, five are marked with a 3, sixteen are marked with a 4, thirty four are marked with a 5, one is marked with a 6 and thirty are marked with a 7. Thirteen seem to have no single digit number. I have no idea about the significance of the single digit.
M91/38s have either stamped serial numbers on the bolt or electropencil. For what it is worth, of the ones I have seen, 65 (72%) have ep'd bolts and 25 (29%) of the bolts are stamped serial numbers. Most if not all 91/38s are force matched.
An oddball that I saw one photo in 2016 was a 1917 Remington M91/59.
They are very interesting and for those who follow sales, prices are all over the map, depending on whether sold in auctions or sold locally (often as M38s.) In addition to prices reflecting local M38s many go for well over a thousand on online auctions.
Neal
neal45
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:23 am
by qz2026
Neal, here is another one that you may not have included in the database that I have had for a while. Let me know if there is any more information you need. Has a post '28 bolt with a combination of Imperial and post '28 components with EP'd s/n. Note mystery number of "5" and original receiver. I think you have all of them now.
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:07 am
by neal45
Thanks for the great photos. It is a beauty.
I do already have it in the database so it is included in the details in my first post.
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:29 am
by neal45
I just had a question about ep vs stamped bolts. I have not been keeping up with that as long and can not tell from some photos but here is my data on the ones I have seen:
ep Bolts
26 for 74%
Stamped Bolts
9 for 26%
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:38 am
by qz2026
Interesting. Never thought of that before. I'm at 50%.
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:11 pm
by Junk Yard Dog
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:22 am
by Darryl
This is a sticky ...... no need to "bump it".
Re: Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:12 pm
by SA1911a1
That is really good stuff. Thanks a lot.
I have yet to see a 91/38 anywhere but here.
Updated information from my M91/38 database
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:40 pm
by neal45
Updated information:
See the first post!!!
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:19 am
by neal45
Update for April, 2016
I am up to 123 M91/38s in my database now.
The arsenal percentages are the same as above.
The 11 Cossacks are now only 9% of the total.
Of the old M91 and other early modified stocks, the total is now 42 with 61% steel crossbolts, 19% no crossbolts, and 10% wood crossbolts. The remainder are newer M44 and some M38 stocks.
26% of the bolts are stamped serials, 74% are electro pencil (or whatever it was they were using - there have been some comments but I'm not sure.)
The provenance of these odd rifles is now leaning to a Bulgarian origin.
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:10 am
by qz2026
It might be interesting if those adamant about the Bulgarian connection would put together a detailed write-up to include all the information they have - conjecture and fact, for everyone to ponder. I am open to this if the "experts" could fully document and explain many of the inconsistencies I see.
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:14 am
by Darryl
I don't know all of the "Bulgarian connections" but I think that you will see Bulgarian arsenal marks on the receiver that you will not see on M91's which the M91/38's were made from (I think).
M91/38 rifle
My question is, how did these rifles go from Russia (made) to Bulgaria (where altered to M91/38) and back to Russia where they were exported from. And why the round trip.
There really are too many questions to prove the theory, but it sounds good.
Oh, the stories of them being used in Bulgaria as guard weapons is made up and has gone around the internet a few times. Along with a few other stories.
Maybe someone has some other facts also.
Dolk
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 4:09 am
by neal45
Here is information I have copied from a discussion on Gunboards for what it is worth. Sounds interesting to me:
From RyanE on a Gunboards thread
Some quick pics attached. The KK is almost certainly Качество Контролер (Quality Controller), the number underneath being the inspector. You can see the inkstamp version on the Bulgarian sling. Shows up on tons of Bulgarian M95 cutdowns as well other stuff. Pretty common to see scrubbed SVT40 magazines with this inspection in the Bulgarian AVT "non-imports". You can even find the occasional scrubbed and reworked P.38 magazine with the inspections.
Stock pic is from a reworked 91/38 or 91/59, and is almost always incorrectly described as a "Czech Stock" thanks to incorrect Mosin references. The Cyrillic 'BTK' (or БTK?) next to the KK10 is obviously a Bulgarian variation of the Soviet OTK (Department of Technical Control) stamp. They even copied the way the T and K overlap.
From another post:
The Circle KK # (probably Качество Контролер, Quality Controller, or some variation thereof followed by his assigned number) inspection is very common on Bulgarian M95 carbine conversions. The Bulgarian stocks (misidentified as Czech) are beech wood and marked with several small inspections including a BTK inside a star (probably the Bulgarian version of the Soviet OTK) and usually, but not always, the Circle KK. Google 'Czech Stock Mosin' for pics.
The Circle KK is also seen on scrubbed, reworked SVT40 mags imported with the Bulgarian AVT reworks (when found they are usually together) as well as a handful of scrubbed P38 mags. I would assume the stamp may have been used on many other items of the period
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 4:42 am
by SA1911a1
dolk wrote:I don't know all of the "Bulgarian connections" but I think that you will see Bulgarian arsenal marks on the receiver that you will not see on M91's which the M91/38's were made from (I think).
M91/38 rifle
My question is, how did these rifles go from Russia (made) to Bulgaria (where altered to M91/38) and back to Russia where they were exported from. And why the round trip.
There really are too many questions to prove the theory, but it sounds good.
Oh, the stories of them being used in Bulgaria as guard weapons is made up and has gone around the internet a few times. Along with a few other stories.
Maybe someone has some other facts also.
Dolk
No facts, but a plausable theory:
Which ever Nation that built/owned these rifles may have swapped them in on a newer weapon system (SKS/AK). The Soviets, being the Soviets, not wanting there to be too many "extra" firearms sitting in warehouses in client states, stuck them in a salt mine in anticipation of WWIII, until capitalism started kicking in and they were more useful gathering in dollars than gathering in dust.
Now, for an off-topic editorial comment tacked onto a wild ass theory:
It is funny how dollars tend to curb martial instincts. Perhaps we should use that against our present "enemies." If we would start doing business with ISIL that made it too expensive for them to lose us as a customer, it might calm them down. I suggest we double our current taxes to make such a system happen.
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 5:07 am
by qz2026
hmmmmm, we've already supplied arms and millions of dollars to the so-called Syrian rebels, AKA ISIS. Only seem to embolden them... but... our taxes went up...
I'm willing to concede some sort of Bulgarian "connection" but, to me, there is no firm data that Bulgaria reworked the M-91's and built these carbines. The majority of my 91/38 stocks have, what has been considered, Czech stamping on the top of the butt stock, as well as several of my later pristine M-44's. I even have an ex Dragoon somewhere that has the circle T stamp on it. Regardless, I am open to suggestion if there are facts. I've seen many of RyanT's comments and, quite frankly, stopped reading them.
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:11 am
by neal45
Maybe for now we should say - Czech/Bulgarian/???
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:23 am
by qz2026
I used to label them as "Mosin Nagant Czech M1891/38". Now I've changed all of my ID cards to "Mosin Nagant M1891/38"
Re: Updated information (10-19-15) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:26 pm
by SA1911a1
I have yet to see one in the wild, but I will be keeping my eyes peeled at a big show I will be attending on Oct. 22.
Re: Updated information (12-31-2016) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:56 pm
by NLMosin
Neal, Please add my 91/38 to your database. Heres a link to the post. If you need anymore info let me know. Thanks.
1902 Izhevsk 91/38
Re: Updated information (12-31-2017) from my M91/38 database
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:46 am
by neal45
neal45 wrote:UPDATED INFORMATION 1-1-2019:
I'm updating the 91/38 database with totals through December 31, 2018
I have been building the database for about 8 years now. It was started just to keep up with prices and had a short description of the 91/38s to keep them apart. As I became more interested in 91/38s, I started adding more data.
In some for sale ads and threads, it is hard to determine all relevant information. I have totaled and categorized what I can see from the photos and learn from the descriptions and sometimes correspondence.
Total M91/38s currently in the database - 152
Dates: 1891 – 1920
Arsenals:
Chatellerault – 9 - 6% of the total
Sestroryetsk – 14 - 10%
Tula – 30 - 21%
Izhevsk – 81 - 61%
Remington – 2 - 1%
New England Westinghouse – 1 - 1%
15 Izhevsks have the Cossack Ka3 mark – 10% of the total
Stock types:
There are at least 55 91/38s with M91 modified stocks. Of these,
14 (25%) have no crossbolts and 4 (7%) have wooden crossbolts. The remainder are steel (69%). That is a very high percentage without the steel crossbolt upgrade that began in 1909. On the other hand, regular M91s with wooden crossbolts or no crossbolt are uncommon. All 91/38 M91 modified stocks I have seen have the M44 type folding bayonet groove.
There are at least 75 with M38 or M44 stocks. Some of the stocks are "Czech" (new, blonde stocks) but I only started keeping up with that recently.
Bayonets:
I have seen two M91/38s still with a bayonet but it looks like most (all?) of them had a M44 type bayonet earlier in their lives.
Single digit number:
Many 91/38s have an odd single digit number on the barrel shank. I did not record the number when I started the database but of the ones I have, thirty one are marked with a 1, five are marked with a 3, sixteen are marked with a 4, thirty four are marked with a 5, one is marked with a 6 and thirty are marked with a 7. Thirteen seem to have no single digit number. I have no idea about the significance of the single digit.
M91/38s have either stamped serial numbers on the bolt or electropencil. For what it is worth, of the ones I have seen, 65 (72%) have ep'd bolts and 25 (29%) of the bolts are stamped serial numbers. Most if not all 91/38s are force matched.
An oddball that I saw one photo in 2016 was a 1917 Remington M91/59.
They are very interesting and for those who follow sales, prices are all over the map, depending on whether sold in auctions or sold locally (often as M38s.) In addition to prices reflecting local M38s many go for well over a thousand on online auctions.
Neal
neal45