The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

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Junk Yard Dog wrote:That and Ol' man Burns got busted and lost the FFL causing his stock of milsurps to sit in limbo for some years before his wife and kid got permission to sell them off.

How long was that for? About 4-5 years correct?

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I don't remember any more, it was a long time ago. I don't recall seeing any of these rifles offered in the early 1980's, I have it from multiple Finnish sources that the M39 was still being used as a training rifle at least as late as 1982. It was the rise of
Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev and his introduction of Perestroyka in the USSR that started the sudden dumping of older milsurps on the world arms market after 1986 as Soviet aggression became less of a worry, and then vanished entirely. It was at this time that the UK and the commonwealth countries started cleaning out the arsenals of bolt rifles, and later FAL type rifles ( they came in as parts kits) One buffer state after another declared political independence from Moscow and almost immediately started getting rid of old Mosin rifles they had on hand for much needed cash. Then came the breakup of the old USSR and it's republics becoming independent nations, this allowed Ukraine to dump huge Soviet era weapons stockpiles. Finland was just one of many selling off Mosins in the late 1980's, they were slightly ahead of Ukraine, but not Romania and the other Balkan states who had a couple years head start on independence. You will see former Romanian or Polish, Hungarian and so on rifles here with the same tiny import marks as the Finn Mosins since they were imported around the same time. Burns didn't really get going with the M39 sales until the early to mid 2000's when collectors started to take notice of the rifles. Around that time I was buying M39's from their list 2-4 at a time plus other Finn Mosins for prices that today would be considered almost free. Any number of sellers offered them in the late 80's but few took notice with all the Garands and Enfields flooding the market at the same time. I acquired Finn Mosins during that time mostly by chance, they came with other lots of guns I bought out, or were so cheap, like less than $20 cheap that I added one here and there. Later the Ukraine hoard would overshadow everything, a refurbished Soviet M91/30 or carbine for less than the cost a fast food meal. Back around 1992 you could stand in the middle of a show not wondering were all the cheap milsurps were, but wondering were to start when every table is covered in them in a dizzying variety. You walk into a show back then with 2-3 grand you batter have a U-Haul truck waiting in the parking lot because that money would buy whole tables or even rows worth of milsurps, bayonets, gear, ammo....

capt14k wrote:

Junk Yard Dog wrote:That and Ol' man Burns got busted and lost the FFL causing his stock of milsurps to sit in limbo for some years before his wife and kid got permission to sell them off.

How long was that for? About 4-5 years correct?

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No, many more years then that. His wife sold them for almost 10 year (well, his wife and son).

The "old man" was selling off full auto surplus firearms and they cut the receivers with a band saw. The BATF said that was OK. Then after they had sold a few, the BATF said the receivers had to be cut with a "flame tourch", and not just a bandsaw. They went after Burn's and took his FFL license. Well, I think there was other things going on also and he didn't have the best of relations with the BATF. And they took him down. As his wife owns the firearms also, she started selling them as a "private" owner. Same as you would do. Her requirements was that you had to have at least a 03FFL license or if the firearm was an "antique" (the receiver older then 1898), then you had to be over 21 only. Those rifle (the antiques) became "in demand" as anyone could buy them. So the price on them went up.

2004 to 2008 they sold normally as a FFL to any FFL dealer

2008 you noticed the first time they started selling under "Pat Burns Personal Collection".
PAT BURNS
PERSONAL COLLECTION
FORMER INVENTORY OF A WHOLESALE COMPANY
P.O. BOX 866 AQUEBOGUE, NY 11931
PHONE 631-734-5022 FAX# 631-734-5339
You would get a copy of her drivers license when you bought one.

Burns sold well past 2014 into 2015 then sold out most of the balance to Classic.


They sold many M39's to "dealers" .....they in turn had to sell them for a "certain amount" so Burns could keep the prices up high. So if you were a dealer (and bought from them) and sold them cheaply, he would cut you off. Many a fights over that issue. He also got into a squabble with the owners at Gunboards over advertisement prices. Burns left and refused to pay the bill for his advertising. That set off a flurry of "anti Burns" disinformation. But he still had all the M39's, so if you wanted one, you had to eat crow and buy from him. It was funny how he was almost "GOD Like" one day, then "The Devil" the next day! Most of those stories are "sour grapes".



Darryl



.

]I meant 4-5 years they weren't selling. I thought they were importer in 1982. Problems happened in 1988 and then selling resumed in early 90s.

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capt14k wrote:[I meant 4-5 years they weren't selling. I thought they were importer in 1982. Problems happened in 1988 and then selling resumed in early 90s.

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Possible they were selling those M39's before 2004 (and probably were). I only have records of them from 2003 on and they were selling those M39's then. So it possible they sold before 2004. But I can say for sure they sold them till 2015.

Wern't selling is a different thing. I know they sold them from before 2004 till 2015 for sure. Didn't sell them before that is a different thing. I have the article on when he got into trouble and why, but I haven't read that in years now. could have stopped selling for that long....sure, possible. Never looked that close.

They sold thousands of M39's over the years. In fact, most of them came through them one way or another.

Darryl

Correction, they were selling the M39's from mid 2001 on and did so till 2015


Before that, they were not much of a presence on the internet. In fact, I think they were into construction? Was called Bur's Brothers at first. Then morfed to Burns

Bill Burns Sr. (Maybe John?)
Pat Burns (his wife)
Bill Burns Jr. (his son)

I'm definitely at least a decade off. Finns didn't start surplusing the M/39 til 1986. Burns bought the last big batch of 12,900 from Tennessee Guns in 2007.

I thought Burns imported an earlier batch with another importer in I guess it was 1992. ZeeBill would likely remember best. He was dealing with a lot of the big players in that area.

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dolk wrote:

dolk wrote:Bill Burns Sr. (Maybe John?)
Pat Burns (his wife)
Bill Burns Jr. (his son)

They have two sons. I think it is Bill Jr and Chris. John may have been Bill Sr Brother.

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Never had any quarrel with any of them, I did a lot of business with Burns back around 2005-2008. Around that time Uncle stopped the production of R12 refrigerant, this caused demand to skyrocket as many old coolers in "mom & pop" grocery stores used it. I happened to be sitting on...lets just say a lot...of one pound cans of R12, when the price peaked I started selling and demand was high. I used a chunk of that profit to flesh out my M39 collection. Burns would take paypal if you didn't mention guns, or credit cards, I had many a fun shopping spree when the new lists of M39's came out, or I looked on their GB sales. Remember they were also selling Romanian import 91/30's, carbines, and Aztec arms import marked refurb Mosins. Turk Mausers also, and parts of every description. That R12 cost me nothing, someone years back wanted rid of it and thought they had a sucker when I accepted it, being a hoarder I sat on that pile for years until the time was right. Other than some time shipping box's you could say my entire M39 collection was free along with a good number of other rifles, and Burns always sent me good ones. There were early complaints that the rifles had been opened up and shims discarded, I never found any evidence of this, none looked opened at all, but then I didn't bother buying rifles just because they had an antique tang date, the only way to tell such is if you opened the action to look. What I do remember is the thick black graphite grease mixed with sand that coated most of my M39's below the wood line, none had been cleaned by the tang so their date was a mystery until I looked. Whatever issues others may have had with them, Burns and Co are tops in my book, I will always remember with fondness our many transactions as such a time will never come again.

I bought two Maltby Enfields from Burns in mid 2004. One for $100 and two for $150. I remember they sent a copy of her drivers license to my FFL. It was about 3 more years before I bought my first M39 from them for mid $300.00's.

capt14k wrote:I'm definitely at least a decade off. Finns didn't start surplusing the M/39 til 1986. Burns bought the last big batch of 12,900 from Tennessee Guns in 2007.

I thought Burns imported an earlier batch with another importer in I guess it was 1992. ZeeBill would likely remember best. He was dealing with a lot of the big players in that area.

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I purchased one of these later imported M39s. SOG was selling them for a great price and not sorted at all. There were Tikkas, B barrels, Round receivers, and any and all types. These would have never went through Burns as they knew what they are and would have sorted them and priced accordingly.

These do have a some different markings. A modern Finn firing proof dated 2006 and import marked with 7.62x53R.
[attachment=0]DSC_0070-3_zpspvtvuczi.jpg[ /attachment]

That is interesting Lee, the 1941 VKT M39 that came from Burns a few years ago has that same stamp.

These must have been imported by Tennessee Guns but not all went to Burns, Some went to SOG

Mine has the 7,62x53R on the left side of the barrel shank. Consensus was it was put there by the Finns as they use a , instead of a . for a decimal point. I don't remember the reason for 53R marking or if it was safe to shoot 54R.

That isn’t a firing proof marking. It is a Eurozone commercial proof mark.


Finns always use 53R designation. 54R is Russian nomenclature.


My understanding is those rifles marked with lion / dragon head were sold in Europe first. Likely to Franconia and they immediately flipped them to US Importer. Or they were meant to be sold in Europe but were instead sold to US Importer.

The laser etched mark is a Riihimäki CIP proof stamp. Done after released from the Army depots to the civilian market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... Portatives

I just looked in my book, the The M39 was designed around the 7.62x53R loaded with the D-166 bullet, being marked 53R confused both the sellers, SOG and buyers like me. It is the same as all other M39s.

Here is the 53R number for those who haven't seen it.

My VKT had coarse sand in the action. I shot it for a number of years with out a hitch, I thought the sand didn't give the previous owner a good outcome, There was more than a tablespoon full of grit. Jim do you know the source of the sand?

Lee-online wrote:The laser etched mark is a Riihimäki CIP proof stamp. Done after released from the Army depots to the civilian market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissio ... Portatives

I just looked in my book, the The M39 was designed around the 7.62x53R loaded with the D-166 bullet, being marked 53R confused both the sellers, SOG and buyers like me. It is the same as all other M39s.

Here is the 53R number for those who haven't seen it.

762x53r shank.jpg

Yes Riihimäki is the commercial proof house. However it is only put on CIP member state rifles sold to the commercial market which would be in Europe except for UAE, but they didn't join til after 2008. Being a commercial proof mark it doesn't have as much to do with the Army Depots as it does with commercial sales. You are correct that it would have been stamped after leaving Army Depot, but it really was stamped before commercial sales to other European CIP Member Countries. Thank you for providing the additional info.

I have 2, One is a 1941 PL marked Sako marked and second is a 1943 also Sako marked, now to try to get pics up.

VKT/1944 + Some additional stuff