Tula or Izhevsk: A collaborative effort?

[WartimeCollections13]

I recently took a dive into the world of Mosin-Nagant rifles and picked up my first! I had done a bit of research before hand and happened upon a numbers matching Tula gun (barrel shank, bolt, buttplate, and floor plate all match), but have since noticed something unusual. All of numbers on the gun match and appear stamped. I see no evidence of any filing or crossing out of numbers (save for perhaps on the buttplate, yet while the barrel shank is marked clearly as a 1940 Tula, the bolt, trigger, and front sight all appear to be marked as Izhevsk. I am curious as to how this may have come to be, should anyone have an idea! If the parts were replaced, I would have expected mismatching numbers.

I have also noticed an odd marking on the shark that is very similar to Tikka triangle mark prior to I believe 1936. I find it hard to believe it could be such a stamp but I have been unable to find any others that are similar in appearance. Perhaps someone can help make some sense of the myriad of symbols, include some on the stock, which I will attach a photo of later.

[millman]

Looks like a typical mix master refurb. I see nothing unusual. Looks nice, though.

[WartimeCollections13]

Would it be typical to match numbers with a refurb like that? I generally thought they just stuck the part in without interest in re-serializing?

Any idea on the triangle T/arrowhead marking on the shank? I’ve not come across that one before.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Would it be typical to match numbers with a refurb like that? I generally thought they just stuck the part in without interest in re-serializing?

Any idea on the triangle T/arrowhead marking on the shank? I’ve not come across that one before.

Oh yes, at times they could be sloppy about it, you will see grind marks, bits of old numbers, other times even the fonts will match, sometimes you will see them just engraved on there. Many different facilities at different times over 50 years rebuilt these weapons, there are lots of small variations. It's not unusual to find parts going back to the 1890's on these rifles, even parts from the US made rifles supplied during the Great War. They reused any good parts that they could, including receivers. The Europeans do the numbering parts thing, the Germans most of all, with them even the screws had some part of the serial number on them. The Russians kept it to barrel, buttplate, magazine door, bolt body, you will find them on receivers also, but that was done here to comply with BATFE regulations. Here in the USA we put a serial number on the receiver and call it good. These rifles are covered with tiny stamps, inspection marks, some known, others not. Do you mean the arrow in the middle of the big star? Star with arrow is the Tula arsenal marking correct for 1940.

[ssg_lord]

During the Soviets post war refurbishment program all rifles were stripped down to the barreled receivers and inspected, those with worn or damaged bores were scrapped. Those with acceptable bores were rebuilt using a combination of new parts and serviceable parts from other rifles. No effort was made to keep the rifles original parts together. These newly installed parts were then restamped to match the barrels serial number. If the part already had a number on it it was ground off or lined out depending on the part. That is why your "matching" rifle has parts from Izhevsk on it. It's actually matching from refurb not factory original matching. The vast majority of Mosin's that were imported from former Soviet storage sites fit into this catagory. The stamp above the Tula star on your rifle is actually a poorly stamped diamond with upside-down T stamp. It is a refurbishment stamp from the Soviet Artillery Armament repair depot #75 located in the Leningrad Military District.

[WartimeCollections13]

The stamp above the Tula star on your rifle is actually a poorly stamped diamond with upside-down T stamp. It is a refurbishment stamp from the Soviet Artillery Armament repair depot #75 located in the Leningrad Military District.

That is the one I had a hard time finding! Really glad someone had it. Looking very closely I can just barely make out the start of what would have formed the diamond but it is nearly imperceptible.

I’ll admit that I’m surprised such care went into making sure the numbers “matched” on this and were not simply stricken and then new ones added next to the old (though they are on the butt plate). The one thing I am somewhat surprised I’ve not found is any marking for location during the Cold War. It seems a lot of these rifles have markings for that or districts.

There does seem to be a marking on the stock that could be that. It is a K inside of a diamond, inside of a circle, next to another mark that is circular and is either the original stock manufacture mark or a CCCP one. I’d be interested of anyone had some thoughts on that as well!

[Junk Yard Dog]

The stamp above the Tula star on your rifle is actually a poorly stamped diamond with upside-down T stamp. It is a refurbishment stamp from the Soviet Artillery Armament repair depot #75 located in the Leningrad Military District.

That is the one I had a hard time finding! Really glad someone had it. Looking very closely I can just barely make out the start of what would have formed the diamond but it is nearly imperceptible.

I’ll admit that I’m surprised such care went into making sure the numbers “matched” on this and were not simply stricken and then new ones added next to the old (though they are on the butt plate). The one thing I am somewhat surprised I’ve not found is any marking for location during the Cold War. It seems a lot of these rifles have markings for that or districts.

There does seem to be a marking on the stock that could be that. It is a K inside of a diamond, inside of a circle, next to another mark that is circular and is either the original stock manufacture mark or a CCCP one. I’d be interested of anyone had some thoughts on that as well!

District markings are more of a Finn Civil Guard thing from before the war, the Soviets were one big happy dysfunctional family. No Civil Guard districts, just different parts of the same red hoard. NKVD troops, Red Army, and so on, all issued the same weapons. You will find lined out numbers with new ones marked next to them in many Romanian M44's, that seemed to be much more common there than in the USSR itself. These were giant make work projects for a socialist country were everyone is guaranteed a job. Refurbishing archaic weapons and storing them away for a war that would have ended in it's first half hour. They even did it to the captured German weapons, and apparently these projects continued into the 1970's. In the US the weapons of WW2 were maintained so long as the military was still using them, beyond that they might get a dusting off if these were being send to an allied government like South Korea, or South Vietnam. Most went into storage they way they were and only got a refurb if they were removed for reissue like during the Korean war when the army rapidly expanded. Remember, that matching numbers crap is a European thing, France, UK, Germany, Italy, Finland, Belgium, Spain, and so on, they all did it. Reasons for this? Anel retentiveness?

[WartimeCollections13]

I imagine the seemingly ridiculous number of what I can only assume are all proof marks are due in part to that continual refurbishment over the years or inspection from time to time as the weapons sat in the warehouses. Seems there are a few that, like some other guns I’ve dealt with, are still unknown today in terms of their meaning.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Some will remain unknown, but research is ongoing in Russia. Most milsurps excluding ours, end up with a collection of inspection stamps on them after many decades of service.

[WartimeCollections13]

Based on the refurb efforts with the gun, and the commonality of mismatched parts, what would one describe this gun as? Would it be called a forced match numbers Tula, or with all the Izhevsk parts can one not in fact say that it is a Tula?

Are there also any good sources on stock markings? I have been able to determine most all of them save for the one on the stock in the photo above.

[awalker1829]

It’s a force matched refurbished rifle. Nothing more, nothing less. Make work for the arsenals. The Brits did that too. All of the FTR Enfields were mostly done to keep the staff employed.

[qz2026]

During the Soviets post war refurbishment program all rifles were stripped down to the barreled receivers and inspected, those with worn or damaged bores were scrapped. Those with acceptable bores were rebuilt using a combination of new parts and serviceable parts from other rifles. No effort was made to keep the rifles original parts together. These newly installed parts were then restamped to match the barrels serial number. If the part already had a number on it it was ground off or lined out depending on the part. That is why your "matching" rifle has parts from Izhevsk on it. It's actually matching from refurb not factory original matching. The vast majority of Mosin's that were imported from former Soviet storage sites fit into this catagory. The stamp above the Tula star on your rifle is actually a poorly stamped diamond with upside-down T stamp. It is a refurbishment stamp from the Soviet Artillery Armament repair depot #75 located in the Leningrad Military District.

That stamp could also be from the 1871st ABV (Moscow Military District) at Liski. Regardless, a nice but refurbished rifle that made use of parts available.

[bogozzo]

numbering of parts? I had been told that the numbering of parts on European guns came from the days of hand machining and hand assembly where parts were matched to achieve critical tolerances (say head space). Once that was done the gun was disassembled, numbered and reassembled. On a refurbished gun, the "matching" numbers depended on the time that arsenal invested in each piece, some just checking tolerances and assembling with old #s, some checking tolerances then doing the disassembly / renumber / match thing.

Any thoughts?

[awalker1829]

Usually only the critical parts were numbered-barrel, receiver, bolt. Most of the European militaries stuck pretty much to that level of numbering. The big exception were the Germans, who for a while numbered every part large enough to be numbered. The screws on my Karabiner 88 have both the last two digits and a proof mark. Just as an example, the Kar 88 should have the serial number on the magazine housing, the stock (burned into the wood under the barrel jacket), the two screws that attach the magazine housing to the stock, the bolt head, bolt body, gas shield, receiver, barrel jacket, barrel (inside the barrel jacket), rear sight, barrel band and nose cap. That's a lot of places to check, and I've checked every one on my rifle. The only part that does not match is the nose cap.