Identification required on PU sniper please

[dangeo69]

Happy Easter everyone
I am a new U.K. member to this forum and would appreciate your comments on the PU sniper that I have bought. I purchased this rifle from a U.K. gun store website on spec, only because it was fairly reasonably priced and looked nice. I am an early semi-auto pistol guy really but have picked up a couple of sniper rifles and I thought this might be a good one to add to the collection even though I had only heard of Mosins by name before this. It was only when I got it home and saw all of these markings over it that I thought It would be interesting to do a little research on them. Two months later I find I have stepped into the fantastic world of the Mosin Nagant and do nothing but read about them and have already purchased my next one.
It was only when I started reading about them I came across the “fake sniper” issue which made me look at mine with a more careful eye. I think it may be ok but I would very much like you expert opinions on it
Cheers from the U.K.
George

[Miller Tyme]

Its a legit PU sir, one from the latter batches that came out of Russia 6-7 years ago.

[Snayperskaya]

Hi George, and welcome

I'm also in the UK and have a '44-dated Izhevsk PU.....I saw the one you have on the dealers website and noticed the scope mount cut out on the stock appears to have been cut too long.Your scope also appears to be a NKV Plant No.357 "Progress" produced SVT scope, made after the Leningrad Plant was evacuated to Omsk in September '41.Mine also has a "Progress" SVT scope, made whilst the plant was still in Leningrad in 1940.

Is your scope elevation turret marked with "CB"?.

Here is a typical example of a fake PU sniper that was for sale here in the UK, the serial number prefix isn't correct for a '43 Izhevsk PU and it is an ordinary infantry 91/30 turned into a "sniper".I feel sorry for people that fall foul of unscrupulous dealers that sell them as original, often knowing full well that they are not :(

http://www.byswordandmusket.co.uk/past- ... per-rifle/

[dangeo69]

Hi
Many thanks for the replies Mr Tyme and Mr Snayperskaya
Sorry for being a bit light on Mosin Knowledge but I have listed a few queries below in order to help me understand things a little more.
1) You say it is one of the latter batches that came out of Russia 6-7 years ago. Is that confirmed due to the serial number ?, how many came out at that time?, any more info on its history would be really interesting.
2) Yes there is a CB on the elevation turret. (Please advise what that means)
3) Which part of the UK are you based in Mr S.
4) Yes there is too much timber removed at the front of the scope mount but again I'm not sure why this has happened. I originally thought it had just snapped away after being dropped but the actual cut is very smooth, so whether any damaged wood has been removed by way of a neat cut I dont know. It seems strange that the guy cutting out for the scope mount and base should make such a bad mistake (I thought it was only the people who work at the timber company I work for made that sort of cock-up).
5) If a number is 'scrubbed' does that mean it is actually ground out. If so, some of these numbers on butt plates etc seem quite deep, would that not wear away the metal too much ?
6) My PU does not have the Cyrillic letters in front of the serial numbers on the butt plate, bolt and magazine base. Does that mean it has been back to the arsenal to be re-furbished. ?
7) I have removed the butt plate and the same number is struck into the timber end with no Cyrillic letters in front of it.
Apologies if some of these questions seem a little daft but any additional information on my rifle would be great
Cheers
George

[Snayperskaya]

1) Not sure how one would tell what batch a rifle was imported in or how long ago as in the UK we don't have importers stamps/marks as they aren't required here.My '44 Izhevsk PU was owned by a gentleman for 30 years before I bought it last December (still had Cosmoline on it!) and it's anyones guess as to when it actually came into the country originally.

2) As I understand it a "CB" mark on a SVT PU elevation drum shows that it has been recalibrated for use on a Mosin.The Mosin and SVT have different ballistics and when the Red Army stopped issuing the SVT as a sniper rifle they took surplus SVT scopes and recalibrated them to use on Mosins.Not all of them were CB marked, the SVT scope on my PU sniper still has its original SVT drum.Another thing to look out for is the spacing of the increments on the drum as they are differently spaced on SVT or Mosin variants......

sketch-1544518232910.png

3) I'm in Telford, Shropshire and a member at Minsterley Ranges and I'm on the FullBore UK Forum with the same username as here.

4) Not sure why the cut out on the side of the stock was cut too long, I did wonder when I first saw it on the dealers website if it may have originally been a side mount PE/PEM stock originally.....Someone more knowledgeable about such things than myself may be able to shed more light on it.

5) Scrubbed numbers, ie a scope number on the barrel shank, are ground off and then polished and re-blued.Bolt body serial numbers can also be scrubbed and restamped if it is subsequently used on a different rifle.On my PU the original scope serial number has been scrubbed, leaving a very faint number "4" showing, but no number was restamped.Numbers are usually scrubbed etc when the rifle goes through the arsenal refurbishment process.

6) chances are the parts without the alpha prefix were changed when the rifle was refurbished, either for new parts or parts recycled from other rifles.It is, I believe, relatively uncommon to find a PU sniper that hasn't been refurbed to some degree, some were heavily refurbed whereas others may have just had a lick of shellac on the stock and that was it!.Mine has had the bolt body, floorplate and buttplate changed at refurb time but all were stamped with the same alpha prefix as the barrel shank although the font is different , I think it would be described as "arsenal matching" .The buttplate appears to have been a new one and the bolt body and floorplate had their original numbers scrubbed and then restamped and the original number on the floorplate can be faintly seen despite it being polished then re-blued.

The square box stamp on the barrel shank is an Arsenal refurb stamp that shows it went through the 7th GRAU Arsenal in Riga, Latvia, when Latvia was still part of the USSR, the same stamp may well be present on the stock too.The scope also has the same refurb stamp so that was also refurbishedat the same Arsenal.

IMG_20160308_134740.JPG

7) Quite possible the stock isn't the rifles original stock and it was also replaced when the rifle was refurbished hence the number under the buttplate.

I also noticed that your bolt body has a Klimovsk5 proof house mark, this is one of the C.I.P-recognised proof marks of the Russian Federation

https://www.cip-bobp.org/fr/proof-marks-in-force

[Miller Tyme]

The Russian Proof House stamp on the bolt is how you can identify approx when it came in.

[Snayperskaya]

The Russian Proof House stamp on the bolt is how you can identify approx when it came in.

That Klimovsk proof mark has been used for decades.I've seen early '70s Baikal shotguns etc with it on so it isn't a recent mark, certainly not in Europe anyway.

[Miller Tyme]

The Russian Proof House stamp on the bolt is how you can identify approx when it came in.

That Klimovsk proof mark has been used for decades.I've seen early '70s Baikal shotguns etc with it on so it isn't a recent mark, certainly not in Europe anyway.

But it is a recent mark on imported PU snipers.

[Snayperskaya]

The Russian Proof House stamp on the bolt is how you can identify approx when it came in.

That Klimovsk proof mark has been used for decades.I've seen early '70s Baikal shotguns etc with it on so it isn't a recent mark, certainly not in Europe anyway.

But it is a recent mark on imported PU snipers.

With all due respect I have seen it on PU snipers and other Mosins etc that have been imported years ago.

The C.I.P-recognised proof mark is required by Russian law on all firearms to be used in/exported from Russia.It is quite possible that a rifle bearing this mark could have been proofed at Klimovsk, been sold onto the civilian market in Russia and used in Russia for many years prior to it subsequently being exported out of the country.My SVD came out of Russia in 2011 and has a C.I.P-recognised proof mark from the Izhevsk proof house.There are four C.I.P accredited proofhouses in Russia, two in Klimovsk, one in Izhevsk and one in Krasnozavodsk.

Rifles that are exported out of former Soviet States such as Ukraine won't have a C.I.P-recognised proof as they aren't C.I.P members.

Don't forget the OP and myself are in the UK and not in the States.Here in the UK if a firearm doesn't have a C.I.P-recognised proof mark from a member country it requires proofing at either of the two UK proofhouses before it can be sold.

So for example if a firearms dealer in the UK imports Winchester rifles from the USA he would have to get those rifles proofed before being able to sell them.

[Majiger]

Just to chime in regards to the "CB" it stands for "Снайперскоя Вентовка" which simply translates to sniper rifle. As far as I understand it was used in early production years so that the optics have their own separate serial lettering but most likely got dropped later in the war when these scopes were getting put on Mosins.

[dangeo69]

Hi Guys
Many thanks for the information supplied it has really helped my knowledge along.
With regard to the extra cut out in front of scope mount, as you mentioned Mr S (I am from Grimsby by the way), the stock has a matching stamped serial number, under the butt plate that corresponds with the other numbers it may have been a replacement stock which already had a cut out for an earlier type of scope mount. The cut areas are smooth and covered in shellac. Could anyone shed a bit more light on this and advise whether I should get a restorer to make good this cut out area or should it be left as it is ?
Cheers
George

[millman]

Hi Guys
Many thanks for the information supplied it has really helped my knowledge along.
With regard to the extra cut out in front of scope mount, as you mentioned Mr S (I am from Grimsby by the way), the stock has a matching stamped serial number, under the butt plate that corresponds with the other numbers it may have been a replacement stock which already had a cut out for an earlier type of scope mount. The cut areas are smooth and covered in shellac. Could anyone shed a bit more light on this and advise whether I should get a restorer to make good this cut out area or should it be left as it is ?
Cheers
George

I would leave it as is.

[dangeo69]

Hi
Yes, I think you are right. It does tell a tale (just would like to find out what that tale is). Are there other instances where stocks have been fitted with an old scope mount cut out which did not match the new mount ?.

Cheers
George

[millman]

Hi
Yes, I think you are right. It does tell a tale (just would like to find out what that tale is). Are there other instances where stocks have been fitted with an old scope mount cut out which did not match the new mount ?.

Cheers
George

I'm sure that there are other instances of this. You got to think they refurbed hundreds of thousands if not millions of snipers. I would imagine that everything that could be done to them has been done at least twice.

[Snayperskaya]

I would leave the stock cut out as it is as well, its part of the rifles history.

[Snayperskaya]

Just to chime in regards to the "CB" it stands for "Снайперскоя Вентовка" which simply translates to sniper rifle. As far as I understand it was used in early production years so that the optics have their own separate serial lettering but most likely got dropped later in the war when these scopes were getting put on Mosins.

I thought the the concensus on the "CB" mark was that denoted a SVT scope that had been recalibrated for Mosin use, can anyone verify this?.