Gunbroker fraud turd alert.

[martin08]

Yeah, a rush job. You can still see remnants of the A, as well.

Also look at the relatively sharp lines of the receiver ring in the un-humped photo, and the rounded lines of the receiver ring after the scrubbing.

Serial numbers aren't clear enough for me to make any determination.

[Rowdy1]

I have bought several rifles from GB. I guess I've been lucky. They've been as advertised. The word of caution I would give is always use a credit card not PO money order or Certified Check. With the CC you have some recourse. Also, GB has a fraud guarantee.

[SA1911a1]

I have also been lucky on the Bun Groper. I usually try to buy from someone with a good track record; it pays to do a little homework before hitting the bid button.

I also found it odd the way the thread disappeared, over yonder, with a fairly lame explanation. Educational threads are always worthwhile even if they are interspersed with a bit of pissing contests. There can be a lot of competition and ego issues among some of the serious collectors. Bottom feeders like me get along a bit better.

[capt14k]

I have bought several rifles from GB. I guess I've been lucky. They've been as advertised. The word of caution I would give is always use a credit card not PO money order or Certified Check. With the CC you have some recourse. Also, GB has a fraud guarantee.

USPS MO also offers protections against fraud. The Postal Inspectors take fraud involving the Postal service and their money orders seriously.

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[racerguy00]

Yeah, a rush job. You can still see remnants of the A, as well.

Also look at the relatively sharp lines of the receiver ring in the un-humped photo, and the rounded lines of the receiver ring after the scrubbing.

Serial numbers aren't clear enough for me to make any determination.

How bout a picture of his cell phone with the area of the stock that was stamped?

[martin08]

He now earns another dubious title:

The Un-Humper

[Junk Yard Dog]

Gunbroker like ebay has feedback scores for it's users. Read the comments left by past buyers and avoid the unknown. Not so long ago the world of Mosins was ignored by the criminal element, the low prices discouraged any bother with humping anything. That sort of thing was a problem for German arms collectors. Then idiots started paying real money for M91's and Finn's ruining the quiet section of the hobby and attracting people who would sell their own mothers for a buck. Now the only people who will feel safe with what they have are those of us who bought years ago before all the stamping and grinding started. Sucks, but that's how it goes, now you know how muscle car collectors felt when they found out their numbers matching $500,000 wiz bang wonder supercar was assembled from spare parts, forged paperwork, a stamp set, and grannys old six banger special.

[millman]

So what is this really? k98? Vz24? ???

[Longcolt44]

There is a reason most collectors have research books. The internet can only go so far on copyrighted material. I doubt you will ever see Ball's Book on Mausers or Skennerton's book The Broad Arrow on Enfield's online. Most fakes will not jump out like this one did in fact had he gone to another auction site or a gunshow he might have pulled it off. Never be afraid to get another opinion if you have doubts. Collecting isn't cheap any more so do your homework and save yourself some grief.

[willyj73]

So what is this really? k98? Vz24? ???

On the first page of this thread, racerguy provides the link to the original rifle (the first Gunbroker link). It was listed as a WZ29.

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[target]

Looks like he still had pictures of the rifle before he humped it. Now he is trying to pass of the before pictures as current pics to avoid the BATF. If he posts those before pictures with a new listing then we know for sure that he has ZERO intention of shipping the rifle because the rifle in that condition does not exist. Anyone with a little skill in photoshop can alter words on a crappy picture to fake a date.

Or now that I look a bit closely the serial number looks a LOT less bold than it used to. He may have welded over the marks. Polished it then sand blasted it then hit it with a coat of blue.

Sounds farfetched sure but when the BATFE comes a knocking I bet he would be willing to do anything to make himself look innocent.

[B24]

Looks like he had a very busy Friday.

[awalker1829]

I have bought several rifles from GB. I guess I've been lucky. They've been as advertised. The word of caution I would give is always use a credit card not PO money order or Certified Check. With the CC you have some recourse. Also, GB has a fraud guarantee.

USPS MO also offers protections against fraud. The Postal Inspectors take fraud involving the Postal service and their money orders seriously.

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Postal Inspectors are the federal LEOs that you really don't want on your case. They don't play around-they probably have the highest conviction rate of all of the federal agencies.

That said, sharing information amongst the collector community is the best method of combating frauds. In fact, it would be educational to have images of known faked items shared to educate new members of the community. Some people have no shame. I see plenty of them in my business, working in the courts. Money may not be the root of all ills, but it's a cause of a good many of them.

[martin08]

Here's what a decent example looks like.

Built on tooling for the Kar98 which Poland confiscated from Germany following WWI. Early models were marked as K29, and later changed to wz29. Many were scrubbed of Polish markings and sent to the Spanish Civil War. It is a prize to find one which isn't scrubbed.

Mine is matching except the Czech bolt,

[millman]

So what I don't get, is if it started out as a WZ29, why go through all of the shit to make it a WZ29? I have some Mausers, but I am not a Mauser guy. What was the point of this whole exercise? Just the added Nazi marks, and then the attempt to cover his tracks? Where does the fake Radom roll mark come in? I am slow and confused.

[martin08]

That's O.K. You may be slow and confused, but you ask good questions!

The bulk of wz29 rifles were scrubbed of their Polish marks and sent to Spain. They were used hard, rebuilt and sold to the US in the 1950s and 1960s with all the other SCW imports. In poor condition, they didn't fetch much money.

So the ones which remained in Europe, still with their crests, are few and far between. That's why the humper reapplied the crest. His $400 SCW rifle turned into a $1,700 WWII bringback.... until he got caught.

[millman]

Thanks. Now it makes sense.

[bunkysdad]

He also added serial numbers all over the place where there had been none and removed a serial that didn't match from the bolt handle and added a number that dis match

[BenedictGomez]

I dont know anything about Mauser stampings, what was the original sin in this post? Is it an obvious fraud?

I've learned quite a bit about M1 cartouches, and the same thing happens in the Garand game. Some of them are REALLY good, and you basically need a ruler, magnifying glass, stock photos, etc.... to help. But the truth is, most of them are pretty bad if you know what to look for.

[ffuries]

I dont know anything about Mauser stampings, what was the original sin in this post? Is it an obvious fraud?

I've learned quite a bit about M1 cartouches, and the same thing happens in the Garand game. Some of them are REALLY good, and you basically need a ruler, magnifying glass, stock photos, etc.... to help. But the truth is, most of them are pretty bad if you know what to look for.

Yes flat out fraud, added stamps to make it something it isn't, plus it boosted the price way up. Plus altered the SN which is big legal no-no. If you go back up a few posts you can see where "martin08" gives a pretty detailed A to Z rundown of what the guy did. Now the idiot is scrambling to cover his ass by trying to erase what he did, and making excuses that he mixed up photos of two different guns, but we know better.