Fess up, anyone win this antique M91/38 auction?

[qz2026]

I agree that the price was a little high but it was nice and someone added a Mosin they really wanted to their collection. Sure it is a refurb; but a somewhat rare variation not related to the modern refurbs and now generally attributed to Bulgaria. (So what we have been calling a "Czech Stock" may more accurately be called a "Bulgarian Stock." )

Are you saying that box 17 and box 20 stampings are Bulgarian? There is one individual on the other forum who boisterously insists these are Bulgarian but I have yet to see any documentation from him other than some obscure reference to bill of ladings or hearsay that had these guns going through Bulgaria at the most. Circle T Bulgarian because it has been seen on one subsequent Bulgarian semi auto rifle? I've got a circle 10 on a Mosin 91/30 that came in an Albanian stock. KK/10 stampings attributed to Bulgaria too? You just don't find them on the receivers... They can be anywhere, even on the rear sights indicating to me that there was some collaboration perhaps. My conclusion from all of this is that no one knows and no one will likely ever know the exact origin of these guns. I confess that I know that I don't know... Russia isn't talking and those unidentified individuals who actually worked on these projects (incl the 91/59 program) are fading away along with their knowledge. Many times "truth" comes from those who yell the loudest.

[bunkysdad]

Sorry guys, when I said spoiled rotten I meant it in the tone you might use when messing around with your kids or something, like you guys are spoiled rotten! [emoji14]

[Junk Yard Dog]

Communist " a job for everyone all the time" make work project is my guess. The utilization of leftover parts would appeal to even the cheapest commissar, and it would keep idle hands busy. The fact that they had no use for the product would be immaterial, finding a use for it would be somebody else's department.

[Darryl]

I agree that the price was a little high but it was nice and someone added a Mosin they really wanted to their collection. Sure it is a refurb; but a somewhat rare variation not related to the modern refurbs and now generally attributed to Bulgaria. (So what we have been calling a "Czech Stock" may more accurately be called a "Bulgarian Stock." )

Are you saying that box 17 and box 20 stampings are Bulgarian? There is one individual on the other forum who boisterously insists these are Bulgarian but I have yet to see any documentation from him other than some obscure reference to bill of ladings or hearsay that had these guns going through Bulgaria at the most. Circle T Bulgarian because it has been seen on one subsequent Bulgarian semi auto rifle? I've got a circle 10 on a Mosin 91/30 that came in an Albanian stock. KK/10 stampings attributed to Bulgaria too? You just don't find them on the receivers... They can be anywhere, even on the rear sights indicating to me that there was some collaboration perhaps. My conclusion from all of this is that no one knows and no one will likely ever know the exact origin of these guns. I confess that I know that I don't know... Russia isn't talking and those unidentified individuals who actually worked on these projects (incl the 91/59 program) are fading away along with their knowledge. Many times "truth" comes from those who yell the loudest.

Show me the proof. It's really that simple. Some people seem to just "make it up as they go" or quote old internet pages that are so out of date it is sad. But, if anyone has a stitch of proof, show it and I'm all over it.

Problem is, the Soviet Block (CCCP) are tight lipped and would not release anything. The countries that made the Soviets up have better things to do (today) then waste their time trying to figure out what happened years ago. The info may be out there and some day released. But for right now, I don't see much "proof" anywhere.

Theories just don't cut it for me. Theories is another word for a guess. There are a few indicators that point at certain countries, but nothing solid.

This is just my opinion, and I don't accept anything till I see "proof".

I agree that the price was a little high but it was nice and someone added a Mosin they really wanted to their collection. Sure it is a refurb; but a somewhat rare variation not related.........

Just for the record......
Technically, they are not a "refurb"......... M91/30's and M38's, and M44 that were sold the last few years are "refurbished". The M91/38 was made from M91's into a different model (M91/38). There are no M91/38's that were "refurbished". They were finished when converted from M91's in the same fashion that the refurbs were.


I think Jim might be on to something too. Who knows. "Make Work Jobs" were common in the days that these rifles were made. Sort of like in the days of the depression here (the WPA).

[qz2026]

Makes sense, since it seems that Russia was always behind the 8 ball. Getting involved with wars with plenty of man power but no rifles. When they caught up, they get their butt kicked and thousands of rifles are captured. Double bonus work program. Use unserviceable rifles and make them serviceable and then store them. And this time... have enough rifles to arm the conscripts... when the western hoard attacks.

[neal45]

Thanks for all of the input on the provenance of the 91/38s. I would like to know the definitive answer but possibly never will. I will paste some info from the discussions that brought up the Bulgarian issue on another forum for comments. I am not behind any one theory; just passing along what I pick up. Please add what you can.

Some quick pics attached. The KK is almost certainly Качество Контролер (Quality Controller), the number underneath being the inspector. You can see the inkstamp version on the Bulgarian sling. Shows up on tons of Bulgarian M95 cutdowns as well other stuff. Pretty common to see scrubbed SVT40 magazines with this inspection in the Bulgarian AVT "non-imports". You can even find the occasional scrubbed and reworked P.38 magazine with the inspections.

Stock pic is from a reworked 91/38 or 91/59, and is almost always incorrectly described as a "Czech Stock" thanks to incorrect Mosin references. The Cyrillic 'BTK' (or БTK?) next to the KK10 is obviously a Bulgarian variation of the Soviet OTK (Department of Technical Control) stamp. They even copied the way the T and K overlap.


This is the image he had; sorry for the quality but I just clipped if from my Word file.





And here is another post:
The Circle KK # (probably Качество Контролер, Quality Controller, or some variation thereof followed by his assigned number) inspection is very common on Bulgarian M95 carbine conversions. The Bulgarian stocks (misidentified as Czech) are beech wood and marked with several small inspections including a BTK inside a star (probably the Bulgarian version of the Soviet OTK) and usually, but not always, the Circle KK. Google 'Czech Stock Mosin' for pics.

The Circle KK is also seen on scrubbed, reworked SVT40 mags imported with the Bulgarian AVT reworks (when found they are usually together) as well as a handful of scrubbed P38 mags. I would assume the stamp may have been used on many other items of the period.



I can't vouch for anything since my only knowledge is on Russian weapons.

Thanks for your help and I agree with the definition of refurb. I used it more as a way to comment on the high priced 91/38s comparing them to other shiny after the war Mosins.

[Judi and her Mosins]

I missed this being out of town, with that said...I would be the new owner of that M91/38. Into the crate it would go till my gun rooms are finished. I thank Dolk for that idea.


Liking the stock in this or a M 91 or any other way being irrelevant as this was the last leg of the journey thru history.

Price, well we will never see the old days of sales by the pallet or pound. Then the ships and containers, crates, now the picks are few and drying up. More to come maybe ? Guys ... it is only money...

Judi and her Mosin's

PS... Rongo, I seen what you purchased. Beat me by minutes you did Shall I use magic or black bag you now ?

[Darryl]

Congratulations an an "excellent" M91/38 example. One of the oldest (if not the oldest) "original date" on the barrel shank that I have seen.

Don't worry about the money (I know you don't), we will re-check this thread in a few years and re-check the prices then. I'll bet there will be a lot of people willing to buy it at this price then.

You paid a premium for it now, but you got a premium example!

Dolk

[Kzman]

For those of you who watch this stuff, do a "completed auction" search and you will see that the $700 ceiling has just been broken on Polish M44's... TWICE!

[NLMosin]

SSSSHHHHush KzMan!! I still need one!

[Longcolt44]

For those of you who watch this stuff, do a "completed auction" search and you will see that the $700 ceiling has just been broken on Polish M44's... TWICE!

That price was driven up by a non rated bidder and bought by a price chaser. When I see prices driven up bu non rated bidders I smell a rat. Most are still selling for $350.00 + or -.