PTG M91/38 (Link Corrected)

[willyj73]

I just got this today and wanted to share it on a few sites for some possible info, and because we all like to look at Mosins. I am short on time, so I'm just cutting and pasting what I posted on FB.

Just got this M91/38. Lucked upon the rifle+sling for a pretty decent price. A few things stand out to me. First was the sling. I've seen similar slings sold as M38 slings. This one has the same type of dog collars and leather as an Albanian 91/30 sling that I own. Second was some of the crudeness of the stock. While it looks nice, the area around the tang is crudely cut, and there is a gap between the stock and the nose piece. Also, the stock escutcheons are unevenly sized and applied a bit sloppily (as compared to the 91/59 I own. As nice as the finish is on the stock, I would have thought they would have put the same care in other areas). Some other interesting items are the "R" on the top right side of the barrel shank, the stylized electropenciled serial number, the "_Z5" under the serial number, and the maker mark on the trigger guard--looks like a Sestroryetsk arrow with an Izhevsk bow added to it--or vice versa. Also, the bolt is very clean--a mix of imperial era and soviet era parts.

Link to the photos I took with my cell phone. Shows areas of interest.

http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/Cvill ... G%20M91_38

[NLMosin]

Link says album is private.

[willyj73]

I'll have to correct it in a little bit. I set it for public...must have reset.

[willyj73]

I corrected the link. It should work now. I didn't realize I had to get a different web address via Photobucket.

[qz2026]

The rifle looks legit to me. I believe the "Z" is a stamping but I'm not sure what it represents. This was not done as part of the 91/38 build. The "Z" was stamped during the M-91's previous lifetime. Could be that it was a capture at some point or was stamped during the revolution. The "5" on the other had, is what some of us call the "mystery" number. Virtually all the 91/38's have a number like this (1, 5, 7) stamped on the shank. We don't know what it means but these are unique to 91/38's. The forestock where the nose cap fits, looks to have been cut and is not flush with the cap. The EP on the bolt is quite common on the 91/38's as these were arsenal matched like any other refurbishment. I see nothing unusual about the stock other than the nose cap. The tang insert is ok. The stock is from the later 91/38 builds. All of the ones I have seen that were placed in M-44 stocks had darkened escutcheons, as yours does. But I have never seen one where the stock is so proud of the nose cap. I could not read the date on the shank but assume it is a 1914 matched with the receiver.

[NLMosin]

I did a little hunting around and found the two symbols I highlighted in yellow.. They are said to be marks put on by the Czechs when they built your 91/38.

czech.jpg

[willyj73]

Thanks for the info. I was assuming the "5" went with the "Z" on the shank. I believe the date on the barrel would have been 1914...it is unreadable. There is also an "R" stamp to the right of the PTG logo (for lack of a better term). It's easy to miss in the photos. I had a 91/59, and it was like a new rifle. I'm not familiar with the 91/38's (or the 59's for that matter). I was just a little surprised to see that the inletting around the tang was rough, the nose piece had a gap, and the escutcheons on the forend seemed uneven. I thought all areas would be "nice" because the finish on these seem pretty decent.

[willyj73]

I did a little hunting around and found the two symbols I highlighted in yellow.. They are said to be marks put on by the Czechs when they built your 91/38.

czech.jpg

Some people have said these may be Bulgarian. It has something to do with the "kk" followed by a number. I guess this symbol shows up on firearms from Bulgaria. I can't find the thread where this was talked about to provide better info.

[qz2026]

Yes, there are those who firmly feel that these were made in Bulgaria or Albania. One particular user on the other site is adamant about this. Most people in this site mostly concede it was Czech, as I do or, at least, aren't willing to push their views on the forum. The circle KK10 stamping is what they use in their thinking since a much later rifle had a similar stamping, I believe from Bulgaria or Albania - I can't remember which. At best, I feel this could have been a collaboration, contracted out by the Russians, since this stamping can be found in different places on the rifle. Not all have the stamp on the receiver. I have one where the stamp is on the rear sight. Others don't have this stamp anywhere. Other than that, most 91/38 specific stampings and stock stampings point to the Czechs. But, we don't really know for certain and probably won't ever know. There are also others who feel this is simply an official bubba rifle that, since modified, destroys the value of the original M-91 used especially when Remington, NEWs or Cossacks were converted. I, on the other hand, love these rifles because virtually all of them started life as an Imperial rifle and they are just too cool as carbines for me to resist. These are fairly uncommon as Mosins go. I feel much the same about the pre 1936 91/59's. You should hold on to it. They will only increase in value over time.

[neal45]

Great overview of what is know about these unusual Mosins qz2026.
If any new readers have overlooked it, there is a sticky at the top of the Mosin page about 91/38s.

[willyj73]

Yeah, I don't think there is any definite proof of where these were reworked--at least none that I'm aware of. That's why I noted the possibility of Bulgaria as well. I think these are very neat Mosin variants as well. Yes, the M91 was cut down, and the carbine is now part of it's service history. The "AZF" mark and "Z" mark are still present and tell part of the rifle's story. I reluctantly sold my only M91/59 to help offset this purchase. It went to another collector, so at least it won't get bubba'd.

[Darryl]

It really doesn't matter but......

That is not "electro penciled" marks on the bolt. Those are technically "electro arc" marks. The electro arc process was used on the 91/38's and some of the later M44's that were made after the war and refurbished (not sure why). But is differentiates the other Mosins that were refurbished with Electro Pencil and the M91/38's with electro arc.

Also, the M91/38's all had some Czech arsenal marks on them. I think the M91/59's were "thought" to come from Bulgaria. But none of this is proven. But to me, if it has Czech arsenal marks are on M91/38's, that makes me lean more towards Czech.



"Electro Arc" or "Arc Pencil"........

Notice the dark edge on the lettering. This is done more like a arc welding process, then the "buzzing" mechanical process of a Electro Pencil (EP)


It can help tell if it is a "real" M91/30. This process is not done very often any more I don't think. It's was done very "neatly" compared to EP.

Dolk

[qz2026]

I don't think I have any with that thick of an etching. Never heard of electro-arc before. Mine, that are not stamped have nice and legible etching, at a higher level of legibility and quality than all EP'ing I have seen, but nothing like this. Very interesting. Was this example off of a 91/38?

[mitch5690]

Glade you got it! They are very unique

[willyj73]

A Cossack is on my want list as well. Not sure it matters to me what form it's in as long as it has the Ka3.