How many people buy milsurps that are accurate?

[TheMaineEvent]

I've only been into milsurps for just over a year now, but have more than a handful of them of various makes and models. Almost without exception, none have been on target which seems odd to me. I'm not talking about shooting high or low, I'm talking about shooting wide left or right.
I would think that given the age of these rifles that some owner(s) along the way would have sighted these in better. Granted, a lot of people just use "kentucky windage" and learn where to hold, but these rifles do have adjustable sights. At least all of my milsurps do.

Heck in some cases, some of these rifles may have been last sighted in by the soldier who used it. Even if it was arsenal refurbed they didn't mess with the sights did they? I feel bad for some soldiers if this was the case, lol.

For what it's worth, I'm a decent shot so it's not me. Well, it's not always me, lol.

Anyone else wonder how some of these rifles can be so off after all this time?

[Mike]

I've been lucky with mine, I don't have an inaccurate one, the worst I have is an M44 that shoots a few inches to the left at 50 yards. I actually expected that one to be the best, I bought it from someone (not mentioning and names here) who makes sight adjusting tools but he never adjusted the sights on it!

[gbeecher65]

It might depend on how you define 'accurate'. I only shoot my Mosin at an indoor range, either 50 feet or 25 yards, depending on location. I've been meaning to try it out deer hunting some year, but haven't yet. I suspect a shot at a deer, with iron sights, would probably be somewhere around 20-40 yards only. I can group 70-80% of shots within the circle of a bulls-eye paper target at 50 ft.

[Greasemonkey]

So many variables in play . Some went through refurb, stocks aging and drying twisting/warping, surplus ammo aging, being knocked around over the years, previous owners mucking with stuff, swapping pieces, even the import/shipping process. Simply changing from surplus to new commercial made ammo or back can have a dramatic effect in some weapons. All these variables added up can have an effect to a degree, granted some more than others. Even the well known flat out accurate rifles, M39 Mosin, K31 Swiss and M96 Swedes need some slight tweaking, but once dialed back in, they can hold their own against most modern weapons.

[jones0430]

Accuracy of rifles from the first half of the 20th Century is relative. Consider that actually aiming was only introduced with rifled muskets, and by the end of the 19th Century, marksmanship was accepted as a necessary skill for riflemen. However, the practice of marksmanship differed widely depending upon the national army. Marksmanship in America and Britain was deemed important, and time and money was spent to ensure that riflemen actually fired, and practiced firing at various distances.

Marksmanship in France and Germany was considered important, though the time and money was not devoted to it in the same manner as in the US or Britain. WWI saw that infantry tactics had not kept pace with the accuracy of firearms, nor the leathality of the new artillery and machineguns. Those were the main killers on the battlefield. The Briish infantry were trained to deliver accurate rapid aimed fire, and at least in one instance, in 1914 a British Infantry battalion stopped a larger force by effectively employing rapid aimed fire, that came close to duplicating massed machinegun fire.

The Russians were less interested in having real marksmen.

As the 20th century evolved, the three national armies that still emphasized marksmanship training remained German, British, and American. The development of the M1 Garand introduced windage adjustment for battlesight zero that could be implemented by the individual rifleman. Ther Russian and British weapons, until the Lee-Enfield No 4, Mk I, were still dependent upon an armorer to make windage adjustments. The Mosing-Nagant never did get a windage capable rear sight.

In all, volume of fire was more important than long-range accuracy.

That said, thier accuracy is acceptable considering the tactics and age of the weapons. For the most part you aren't talking about sniper weapons with scopes shooting over 300 meters away. We are talking about engaging targets closer than 300 meters, where iron sights are truely effective.

[TheMaineEvent]

Good answers. To date, the rifle that required the least amount of adjustment was my K31. It was very close to being "on target" from when it was delivered. That being said, it does shoot a bit high, but that's OK as I was shooting 100 yards with mislurp rounds. I expected that.

My Enfields were OK, but also needed some adjustment to get them to where I'd consider them accurate.

My Mosins,even my M39's, have been all over the place with accuracy. One M44 was almost comical as to how far off target it was which led me to this post.

I understand there's a lot of variables in play that could have changed the sight picture by this point in time, but I guess I was expecting these rifles to be sighted in. I don't know why I thought that and it's not a big deal mind you. It's just something I felt like asking if this sort of thing was the norm or not.

[Lotema]

I don't think I've had a Mosin yet that was accurate right out of the box. They've all needed adjustment in windage to varying degrees, either by an inch or by 8" @ 50 yards. The only ones that I haven't really dinked with were the ones I bought 2nd hand and the previous owner had already done a great job of adjustments, or at least I assume they did. My last Mosin, which I fired for the first time this weekend, was 8" high and 6" to the right. After 5 min of adjustment, I had 12/20 rounds in the 10 ring @ 50 yards. The other 8 rounds weren't far out of the 10 ring either! Not bad for holding it 8" under the target...

[gbeecher65]

I did adjust the windage on mine, not long after first shooting it. It was shooting slightly to the left. I now can hold the majority of shots within a 8" circle at 25 yards - ok accuracy for hunting medium or large game at closer distances.

[bunkysdad]

I have often stacked targets on the board and found that while aiming at 1 target was actually hitting the other. So I start by shooting for grouping, then work from there.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Pretty much every milsurp I own is more accurate than I am. I never bought a milsurp for accuracy, I buy them for the history, commercial sporters I buy for accuracy.

[outdooraddict]

I don't know yet. I'm hoping mine is good, I'd like to shoot a deer or two with mine!

[Junk Yard Dog]

They were made for shooting dangerous game, but they should do OK on deer

[bocephus]

Out of the box they rarely seem to be accurate for me. I usually go through a lot of rounds just to find the paper and start to get it aligned. So much so that I took a scrap piece of plywood and spray painted a giant circle on it so I can get a vague idea of where it shoots. And then when we're talking Mosins and especially Mausers, they tend to shoot high. My service grade Garand on the other hand, pretty accurate right out of the box.

[fintowin]

I have often stacked targets on the board and found that while aiming at 1 target was actually hitting the other. So I start by shooting for grouping, then work from there.

I have done that very thing. I also like to use a very large piece of cardboard with a bullseye in the middle, and see where it is shooting when using a military rifle for the first time.
To the OP....As far as accuracy is concerned (I assume you mean group size), There are some milsurp rifles that are known for being total dogs, and some are quite accurate. You just take them for what they are. Milsurps are just plain cool, accurate or not.

[outdooraddict]

They were made for shooting dangerous game, but they should do OK on deer

People saying 8" groups at 50 years is the only thing that makes me question its ability

[Junk Yard Dog]

The Soviet mosin globe and post sight is the easiest for older eyes to use excepting the French Berthier/Lebel rifles with their huge front stump sight post. Takes me all day to line up a shot with a Mauser, but with a M91/30 it's about three seconds. With practice you can shrink that group down to 4", practice and experimentation to see what sort of ammo your rifle likes best. If you can't improve the vision you will just have to improve the sneakiness and learn to stalk closer to your pray before taking the shot.

[TopperT]

This target from 100 yards off a bench, is pretty typical at 100 yards with several of my M39's.

Currently I am working up a rifle for this summers Military shoots, a 1968 'no-maker' M39, and it is VERY accurate. Most of the M91-30's I have shot are in general less accurate than the M39 but my Tikka M91 is also VERY accurate. You want to win?.....shoot a Finn!

[outdooraddict]

This target from 100 yards off a bench, is pretty typical at 100 yards with several of my M39's.

Currently I am working up a rifle for this summers Military shoots, a 1968 'no-maker' M39, and it is VERY accurate. Most of the M91-30's I have shot are in general less accurate than the M39 but my Tikka M91 is also VERY accurate. You want to win?.....shoot a Finn!

Not too shabby!

[jones0430]

Remember that the criteria for accuracy in a military rifle of this age is to hit a mansized target at 300 meters. So an 8" group at 50 yards fits into that criteria.

[TheMaineEvent]

I have often stacked targets on the board and found that while aiming at 1 target was actually hitting the other. So I start by shooting for grouping, then work from there.

I have done that very thing. I also like to use a very large piece of cardboard with a bullseye in the middle, and see where it is shooting when using a military rifle for the first time.
To the OP....As far as accuracy is concerned (I assume you mean group size), There are some milsurp rifles that are known for being total dogs, and some are quite accurate. You just take them for what they are. Milsurps are just plain cool, accurate or not.

What I meant was that some rifles I bought were nowhere near zeroed. They were shooting wide left/right which seemed odd to me. I completely understand that most, not all, milsurps are not going to be tack drivers. I didn't expect some to be so off the mark that it took a lot of rounds just to get them on paper is all.