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I was very lucky with both of these. The SMLE was the last one aim had in stock literally 45 minutes after they emailed having British or Ishapore wire wraps. The $300 Brits were gone so I settled for the $200 Ishy and got a nice one. Then I got the pattern 07 sword bayonet for it.
The long lee on the other hand has my love. I believe it to be London built because it has a very small engraving that the camera won't get saying what looks to be British rifle co. Per SOG who got 450 out of me for this gun, it came to the country in this configuration. I don't think a tommy had the access to wire wrap the stock with the chrysanthemum patterns but I definitely believe the horse saddle wrap around the mid section of the rifle. Any input on this gun is much appreciated. In my post from yesterday there is a picture of both of these guns standing up with mosins in the corner, I just wanted to puli ah some detailed shots and perhaps get a thread going on the both world wars' war time and interwar period history of the non US enfields.
“A man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.” - Robert Heinlein
That second one screams Khyber Pass rifle to me. More pics of the stamps would help. I hope I am mistaken.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
Erik could be right about that second rifle, a huge number of these have come in from Afghanistan in the last 12 years, it's one of the few war trophy's our boys are allowed to bring home. Nice Ishapoor Enfield
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
I too was afraid of a Khyber pass gun. SOG has always been good to me, however, and when they told me it came in with a crate of enfields ordered from a depot in England I found it hard to believe. There are few stamps, an EFD on the bolt, LE 1 under the crown and year, next to no bluing, and no bring back papers. Also aren't British troops not allowed to bring back guns? Under the potentially dangerous assumption SOG isn't lying when they said it came into country with an order from Britain it could be ruled out. A local gunsmith told me it was consistent with Irish brigade guns in the first war but if it's a KP then maybe a relic from my generations war isn't so bad to have until audit time. Also has a S on the magazines feed ramp if that helps or hurts the guns case.
However if SOG made a fool out of me I'll have to eat my Wheaties and accept it. I'll snap a better picture of the band later today. It's funny I kind of had a bad feeling about it and had almost returned it. Problem is it looks good and doesn't shoot poorly either.
“A man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.” - Robert Heinlein
I do not believe a company like SOG would assume the liability of selling you a KP rifle without telling you. If that rifle blew apart while you were shooting it that would come back on them.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Here's a better band photo as promised. Again if it a KP it's a KP. Any inputs appreciated as it's hard to find any sanctioned production evidence of long lees this long after SMLE conversions began.
Btw major correction time. Years 1916. Don't know why I said 14. Probably let it slip because the SMLE is the first year of the second war so 14 looked right as the first year of the first war. I can live with it being a KP if everyone, Erik especially, lean that way. Probably won't shoot it again if it is. Just not sure the significance of flower patterned wire work to a jihadist gunsmith.
“A man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.” - Robert Heinlein
That is a Khyber Pass rifle. All the KP rifles I have see, counting the 2 I have, are dated 1916. The wire wraps were done to shot out rifles to make the stocks stay together for launching grenades. Look for a VR stamp. This was at official stamp of Queen Victoria, she died in 1909 so a 1916 rifle would not have this stamp.. All British rifles starting with 1910 have a stamp of GR. The official stamp of King George.
No VR anywhere to be found. Just the typical EFD on the bolt, a CE 1, and what you see on the band which I am not sure is the Victorian crown.
I can't get it on camera but the rifling on this gun is still good. I wouldn't call it shot out. The ridges are pretty high and having shot the rifle on paper at 100 yards and achieving relatively decent accuracy I think if this is KP it was somebody wanting it to look a certain way or wanting the ability to shoot grenades because the bore is good.
On your own kyber pass guns how did they come into country? If via yourself due to service thanks in advance and were there bring back papers involved? Any bring back papers with the ones you've seen? Can I even legally possess this gun if it's KP?
“A man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.” - Robert Heinlein
TG International was the importer. They brought in a bunch of the KP rifles. They didn't sell them as KP but the gun community figured out what they were and they were exposed for what they were. Some of these grenade rifles were made from rifles with stressed receivers also. The early ammo the Brits made was made with Cordite powder and it made for a very hot round and it even was known to eat chambers past specifications.
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In your last picture the GR should be under the crown just above the enfield mark on the right collar. I can see the mark but cant tell if it is the GR or something else. I am pretty sure this is a KP rifle. The marks are just not right. GR stands for George Rex. Is this in long lee form or is it in no1 mark III form? I don't think I saw a picture of the muzzle end. I don't believe I have ever seen an enfield with an R before the year either. And the LE is usually in the ShtLE or some form of that OR ShtMLE.
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
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“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
Here is a pic of LC44's KP rifle. I just happened to have a pic handy Chuck.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
I think enfield is even misspelled on the ops rifle..? Looks like EnEiELD
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
To avoid any confusion in the Op before the ruled KP guns pictures were posted, I posted my definitely authentic Ishy SMLE 3* so there are two rifles in this post. The 39 Ishy (r guns import) which we aren't debating, and this one. Now I'm kind of pissed I didn't press SOG for a return but I'll live with it. I'm just glad nothing bad happened when I shot it and when I had it bore scoped it came back as good and was also properly headspace gauged as ok. A shoot able kyber pass I guess. I thought at worst I had a confiscated club gun.
Also the saddle that is wrapped around it is intricate and is not holdin the volley sight in place. Just wanted to point that out. I had it unwrapped by the gunsmith who was able to re attach it for me and I'd rather not unwrap it again for picture purpose.
“A man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.” - Robert Heinlein
Those Pakistani guys aren't without skill. A shootable rifle from them is not that surprising. I have read where some of these include original parts. I would worry about the metallurgy involved. (heat treating and such) Like Chuck said, if the importer is Tennessee Guns, I am about 90% sure it is a KP. Not a bad piece, but it would have been nice to know it going into the deal.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
I would not mind a KP if I bought it right. That means knowing what it was and at the right price. A interesting piece of history as those guys have made everything under the sun. The mis-spelling of Enfield is a dead giveaway. It doesn't even look questionable if it is spelled wrong.
I actually like both of them. The long lee is pretty dang neat. I would love to have a long lee or lee metford myself. I would prefer a british one but what the hey.
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
Some of these KP's are likely even right now firing on US troops someplace in Afghanistan, this one could have harvested a few Soviet troops back in the day's when the USSR invaded Afghanistan. They all have history, but I wouldn't fire that.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
From looking around I think the long lee ended in about 1907ish and the smle started up then. So a 1916 should be in ShtLE or ShtMLE form and maybe even MKIII. Not sure of the update marks.
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
So let's say my long lee is a kyber pass. I'm cool with it.
What should I have paid then? Considering the bore is fine and it's a good shooter and not a wall hanger or hajjis grenade gun, I know I wasn't COMPLETELY had by SOG at 450.
Now here's one other theory someone can shoot down for me. Japan allied with Britain in the first war. The pattern of the metal work on the end of the stock is crysanthemum. Is there any known enfield contract to japan for enfields even a small number? That was the imperial mark after all. Now while I doubt this last ditch theory because of the lack of markings alone aside from EFD on the bolt, this is a damn good copy. The number on the year could even be 46 looking under a magnifier. Were there any commercial long lees on the market then? I don't want it to be what it is, but I accept it if there's no way to rule it out. I'm glad I got my Ishapore wire wrapped SMLE 3*, it's what made me want another enfield. Kyber pass so be it. I've got a job an an FFL. There will be more guns bought and smarter purchasing on my part. SOG has lost a customer.
I'm with junkyard dog. Even with this being a good clone in working order these guns are shooting our troops now and while the war is drawing down which we all have our, I'm sure disagreements with the president, I can't in my right mind shoot this rifle even though my gunsmith gave it a strong okay.
“A man should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.” - Robert Heinlein
