Loading the 7.62x54R down for Comfort

[The Bolt Man]

Does anylone here use reduced loads in their MN 38's and M44's.

The 184 grain FMJ Yugo ammo I have beats the snot out of me. It just isn't fun to shoot. May I am getting a bit wimpy in my old age, but this is rediculous.

I shoot cast bullets at around 1200 fps to 1400 fps and those loads are a pure joy to shoot, accurate and easy on the shooter.

I have a bunch of 184 grain FMJ bullets I pulled from my Yugo ammo so I could use the brass for my cast loads. Now I would like to shoot those FMJ bullets up, but not at the full charge that is unpleasent in the M38 and M44 models.

Any suggested light loads for the 184 grain Fmj in the 7.62x54R.

[slowhand47]

To the original post - NO I have not reloaded 184gn FMJ's. My opinion or WAG would be to remove about 20% of the original charge/ powder [ +filler? ] and reseat/crimp the projectile; see how that feels.
My experience with Milsurp ammo. was the same as yours; but I took a slightly different path and ordered inexpensive 123gr FMJ and used about 36gn of the original [50gn] powder. My Mosin is much more enjoyable ,and enjoys punching paper at 100m still using the 100 m setting.
I did not add any filler but have had no problem. I am keeping the 147gn bullet and believe, with some more research /different powder-same milsurp case/ they could become very accurate at 4-500m with less recoil than milsurp.
I have wandered around this subject for a loooooong time, asked for opinions like you are-and got some strongly negative advice very quickly; and then after some time equally positive direction that also included specific SAFETY instructions..... WARNINGS or guides to keep anyone or anything from unwanted dangers, my simple cure was a sandbag on top of the action after choosing from the generous contributors. ENJOY, safely. Selah

[desdem12]

I am sure that nobody has answered because most of us don't have a problem with the recoil not because of negativity to the posting. If you reload and have a manual they will give some guidlines as to using short charges as there is dangers there associated with haveing to little of powder. I can't remember which one has the Info, maybe the Lee one but i have read a few and also hve read the ones from the powder companies. You may be able to get some more info if you contact the powder MFG themselves. There is always someone who has done some experimenting but be careful with doing that yourself. There is always a minimum listing for the powders. I know i have been no help but good luck with your quest.

[bunkysdad]

I would find reloading data for the bullet weight you want to try and load up about 10 to the minimum charge listed. Shoot them and seem if you are more comfortable with that. I like the cast bullets around 1200 to 1400 fps also.

[knssrtrd]

I shoot more cast lead than jacketed, some Unique or 2400 with a 130-150 grain lead bullet. The cast load is easy on the rifle and easy on me.

[Burrhead]

For reduced loads in any rifle you can use Trail Boss. This a very bulky powder that was designed for the cowboy action shooters. But is finding it's way into reduced loading especially with cast bullets. The manufacturer recommends loading density and as long as you don't try a compressed load you are safe with it. I have played with it in my Vetterli, Remington Rolling Block 43 Spanish and my Sharps 45-70 with good results. I have yet to try it with a jacketed bullet but may try it in my 1889 Schmidt Rubin which I currently load wit hIMR-3031. So I'd suggest googling this powder and have a look at it.
Hope this is helpful
Burrhead

[res45]

Lots of good cast bullet load data for the Mosin. Two of my favorite loads are 16.0 grs. Alliant 2400 or 13.0 grs. Alliant Red Dot with either of the Lee .312 dia gas check bullets. I use the Lee 160 gr. tumble lube gas check bullet with either of the two above loads and get excellent accuracy,the Lee bullet drops close to .314 dia. using wheel weight alloy my M44 bore slugged out at .312 groove to groove.


Another one of my favorite loads uses 3.5 to 5.0 grs. of Bullseye and the Hornady .314 32 cal. lead SWC MV runs around 900 fps. with the light charge and 1100 fps. with the heavier charge. Accuracy is excellent,five shot groups about the size of a quarter at 25 yds. Good tree rat load.


http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

[The Bolt Man]

I found a couple of old Lyman Loading manuals and one of them had some Jacketed bullet data for light loads. There was a listing for a 150 grain jacketed bullet showing 16.0 grains of Unique @ 1740 fps, 12.0 grains of Unique @ 1400 fps and 25.6 grains of 2400 @ 2100 fps. There was a listing for a 220 grain jacketed bullet, showing 14.7 grains of Unique @ 1200 fps and 23.0 grains of 2400 @ 1615 fps.

I should be able to develope a couple of starting loads from this data.

[The Bolt Man]

desdem12 ,

You say most are not recoil sensitive. That may be true for most shooters of the carbine style Mosin Nagants. But most are not my age. With the Mosin Nagant model 38 and 44 I see a notable number of shooters on this forum indicate these little rifles do kick like a mule. That statement suggests to me the level of felt recoil is probably uncomfortable for them and likely limits the number of rounds the fire each outing.

I am 72 years old and with less meat on my shoulders than I had when I was twenty or even forty. I shoot because I enjoy shooting and when the rifle is something from the past, often older than I am, it adds something to the thrill of pulling the trigger and shooting nice tiny groups that would make any shooter proud.

Getting beat up and leaving the shooting range with a sore shoulder is not my idea of fun. I will continue to shoot a lot of cast bullet loads that are a pure joy to shoot and with targets a person can be proud of. I will load the 7.62x54R jacketed bullet down for the little shooting with jacketed that I do. 98% of my shooting is at targets. I am testing the accuracy of the firearms and my shooting ability, not how much recoil I can tolerate. It doesn't take a full charge FMJ round to punch a hole in the target at ranges out to 100 yards.

[MN Fan]

I don't believe desdem was stating you should simply tolerate the recoil from a mil-surplus load. His post was actually genuine in his concern and regard for safety. Its pretty obvious that too light of a load is just as dangerous as too heavy of a load. The first light load may not be a problem, but the second one sure could be!

He was simply saying if you're going to use light loads, be sure to stay above the recommended minimum...for your own safety. Though some can and do tolerate the recoil, not a single one of us wants the barrel blowing up in our or anyone else's face.

I don't reload, so I can't input. But, I do follow gun safety to an extreme...and that is the only point he was trying to make

[desdem12]

i meant no disrespect and i understand what you mean. I am an oldy too but not as old as you And there may come a day when i will need to do that as well. As far as the newer and younger shooters I think that if you shoot more often then the recoil of the carbines will be a non issue. It is just like everything you need to get used to it. Now i am sure that is not the case for you. I am sorry if i offended you. I hope i am able to shoot at 72 and also to be able to see the sights and targets. Happy shooting Bolt man.

[entropy]

Try 123/4/5 gr. .310 bullets made for the SKS/AK over 25 gr. of IMR3031, or 17 gr. of H2400. 33.6 gr. of IMR 4064 with a Rem. 125 .310 AK bullet is a nice target load, still lighter that light ball.

[The Bolt Man]

desdem12,

No offence was taken. I simply thought back about 35 years when I shot the heavy recoiling rifles and didn't seem to mind the recoil. The more I think about it, most of that shooting was off hand and shooting off hand doesn't affect the shoulder as much as bench rest shooting does.

Not only is about 98% of my shooting at paper, it is also off the shooting bench and the recoil has a much greater affect on the shoulder.

I hope you will be shooting well past my years. I know I look forward to many more years of running bullets down the bores of these old war horses. Did I say "Old War Horses". I am older than some of the war horses and younger than others, some dating to the 1890's. I have my own shooting range, so weather permitting and enough of the "Honey Do" projects completed, I can burn powder. It is winter here in Minnesota, and the good days for shooting come less often. Even less often when the snow is deep and drifted. It isn't any fun spending more time getting a tractor with chains unstuck than simply plowing a 350 yard trail to the shooting range. I can enjoy several hours at the range when the temperature is not much below 20 to 25 degrees "F" and the wind, if any, is not out of the north. My shooting bench is enclosed on three sides and there is a roof. I use a sheet of heavy poly dropped from the roof rafter down across the front of the bench to enclose the front. With a shooting port in the right spot and a Mister Heater running it will be 50 to 60 degrees at bench height. Warmer higher up and pretty cold at the floor since the floor is frozen. Good warm foot gear are a must.

The Mosin Nagants being new to my collection are getting the lions share of attention for now. Getting all the copper out of six bores has been a time consuming chore, all but one are ready for the search for the magic load. Once the magic loads are found the rifles are shot less often and I move on to others. I guess I like a challange and that means a lot more shooting, which I enjoy, than taking a known to be accurate load and blowing the "X" ring out of the target.

Happy shooting.

[desdem12]

Sounds like Siberia there But i do remember the old days back in oregon that are like you describe. Having to plow out the farm roads and the driveways with an old 2 cylinder chained up John Deere. I live in the city now and the plowin gets done for you (maybe). I have not yet loaded for the mosins though i have aquired the bullets brass and dies for it, but i do reload for a few others and I enjoy it. My pa taught me how to reload when i was a young kid and i have been at it since then. I don't get out as often as i used to but my son has grown up now and he and his friends have caught the milsurp bug so i am starting to get them to take me ou instead now. Good luck with the winter there....Brad

[res45]

One of these works great for full power mil surplus loads which are generally loaded much warmer that jacketed bullet or cast bullet hand loads http://www.cabelas.com/stocks-grips-acc ... ad-2.shtml

I used a modified version of a LimbSaver on my M44 when I shot heavy ball Bulgarian ammo and the kick was still there but that steel but plate doesn't cut into your shoulder and leave you all black and blue after putting 100 rds. downrange.

[millman]

Have you guys tried one of the Limbsaver slip on pads? They are only like $20 at Wally world, and they really do take the sting out of the MNs. There was a time when I had some medical issues that made the steel buttplate unbearable, and the pad really helped. I don't use it now, but I know what to use should I need it in the future.

[The Bolt Man]

Today, 12/18/11, I fired some of the 184 grain FMJ salvaged Yugo bullets using 23.0 grains of surplus WC 820 powder. My batch of WC 820 acts like 2400 and I am hard pressed to tell the difference when comparing the two. So, at much less cost, the WC 820 is the powder of choice for me.

This load fired quarter sized groups at fifty yards with ease. The average velocity clocked at 1722.6 fps. It was real easy on the shoulder with good accuracy. This was fired in my Model 44 Mosin Nagant with the bayonet extended. Now I can shoot up these salvaged bullets with a load that is accurate and easy on the shooter.

I took two more of my 91-30's to the range today. I fired my 200 grain cast bullet, Lyman # 314299, with 11.0 grains of Unique and Remington 9-1/2 primers. Both rifles shot nickel to quarter sized groups at fifty yards with ease. This now makes three 91-30's that all shoot the same with that load. It isn't difficult to shoot nickel sized groups if I just try a little harder. At my age and wearing trifocal glasses, it can be a problem finding a lense that provides a decent sight picture before eye strain gets the best of me. One more 91-30 to try out yet. Now I will be expecting this last 91-30 to do as well as the other three. I hope it does.

[desdem12]

That is better shooting than i am capable of with my younger eyes. Are the cast bullets .312 or .308 just curious?

[MN Fan]

Bolt Man, that's awesome! Sounds like you found your "sweet spot". I may have to break down and get bifocals. When I last went to the range, I could see the target easy enough but the prescription was too strong to see the sights clearly. I sort of peaked over the top of my glasses, then tilted my head up to see the target...back and forth. I shot pretty well though, but not near good enough to compete. A scope will take care of it on my .22s, but I just don't have the desire to scope my Mosin, even with a clamp on mount.

Thanks for the report...you give me hope

[The Bolt Man]

MN Fan,

When the eyes are no longer what they used to be, a person has to be willing to settle for second or third best. The rule about the front sight being the one to focus on still stands. Then front and rear sight alinement with the target. At my age and condition of the eyes, the front sight is some times in focus or barely so, the rear sight is nearly in focus and the target is very blurry. That is the best I can hope for until eye strain gets the best of me, then all bets are off. When the target becomes the point of focus, sight alinement suffers and groups tend to enlarge.

When we were young, our eyes were capable of focusing on the target, then the sights and back and forth so fast, we believed all three were in focus. Not really, but it seemed that way. As we age, the eyes can no longer switch focus from the sights to the target, switching back and forth rapidly. As the eyes age even more we need the assistence of more than one lense in our glasses and no one lense works for the three different points to focus on. What fun it is to grow old or older.

Shooting with peep sights and globe front sights, all one has to do is center all the blurrs and the "X" gets hit. That is a bit easier than lining up open sights with a target. With open sights similar to the Mosin Nagant, focus on the front sight and the rear blurrs a little. Vertical stringing of the groups is more common. The hooded front sight of the Mosin Nagant helps reduce the problem of vertical stringing of the groups.

There is hope, just work on the basics of sight alinement and let the target blurr some. The sight alinement is more important to more accurate shooting than a target in focus. Believe it or not.