Forced Matched

[amm9130]

How can I tell if my Mosins are force matched

[clayshooter2]

If it doesn't have a prefix before the serial # on anything but the barrel shank, or if the fonts don't exactly match the font on the barrel shank. If it is a refurb, it is most likely force matched. I have seen original matching refurbs, but it is rare.

[Junk Yard Dog]

If it's a refurbished recent import as is commonly available today then it's force matched, all of them were it's just how they were refurbished.

[clayshooter2]

If it's a refurbished recent import as is commonly available today then it's force matched, all of them were it's just how they were refurbished.

Someone just posted one the other day on Gunboards that they just bought, still in the grease, that was all original matching except the butt plate. It is rare, but they are out there. I've never run across one myself in my hunting, but the white whale does exist.

[Junk Yard Dog]

So long as it doesn't have the red shellac it's a possibility. I own, and have seen original as issued Soviet Mosins and all had light colored shellac on them.,

[clayshooter2]

Nope, this was a typical current batch refurb. The pictures are in this thread toward the bottom of the thread.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... l+matching

[Junk Yard Dog]

I am not a member of that board so I can't see any photos, however this-

1938 M91/30 refurb from the Tula arsenal. Round receiver, imported by Century mix of arsenal parts

Makes it a refurb, and highly unlikely to have any original parts left on it. Both it's age, and the parts mix, plus it's coming out of a refurb rifle crate stand against it's being an original to 1938 rifle. The fonts on any number of mine look very close, all the stamping tools probably came from the same place and were made the same way. It isn't that the rifles were mismatched coming in, many probably did match, but it would be prohibitively time consuming to try and keep all of one rifles parts together while refurbishing rifles 10,000 at a time. Remember that they were doing millions of weapons, speed and expediency were key, it was easier to just restamp everything.

[catcracker]

Let me see if I understand. If I see an ad, or someone says all matching numbers, that usually means forced matched, unless otherwise stated. Is that right? And if it was a true all matching numbers, that person would probably go out of there way to explain that it is not a forced match, but a true match.
Still learning. Good learning thread.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The numbers do match, but they are like that because the old numbers except the one on the barrel were ground off, or lined out, and the numbers restamped to match the barrel number. All this time consuming crap is why US milsurps only have one number on them, it's easier.

[desdem12]

An all original matching would have a little patina on it maybe and be all parts from the same original arsenal. The ones that are advertised as matching are forced matched 9999.99% of the time. There are some that slip in though. I would suggest some searching on GB and other places and check differences on pictures. Remember though just because they say all original does not mean it. You have to look close. Check out some of the M91s from america that were not shipped to russia for references. Every part that is marked, and there is a lot must have the original (shank) arsenal marks and from the same year type marks. Sometimes a part is broken and replaced too so you have to learn the little ins and outs of it.

[Juice]

I'm new, but if I read everything right there are some years that the prefix isn't on all the parts. But the font should always match up. Take the bolt out and hold it next to the receiver, you can see the difference in the way the numbers are shaped.

[BuckeyeSgt]

I've sold about 4 or 5 91/30s when I have found a better example. And every time I list one the first question is, "do the numbers match?". You try to explain it but most just don't get it. My answer now is if it's force matched, yes they do. Dont get me wrong...not trying to lie about it but they don't care if they have the same numbers.

[GLUGLUG]

I have one where all fonts match, was stamped not elec. penciled and all start with HB.
Could that be for real?

[Junk Yard Dog]

If it's one of the recent red shellac refurbished rifles it is force matched, the numbers look good because after a million times doing it they got good at it.

[Mike]

I have one where all fonts match, was stamped not elec. penciled and all start with HB.
Could that be for real?

I have two like that, a 1943 Izhevsk with matching numbers, including the prefix. Matching fonts and all parts of the rifle are Izhevsk, however, the rifle is covered in refurb marks, there is no question. I also have a 1932 Izhevsk, all numbers match, the font also matches, it has NO refurb marks, but, when you look closely the parts are a mix of Izhevsk and Tula, it was obviously refurbed.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Your best shot at an as issued Soviet Mosin would come from a Finn capture that wasn't reworked by the Finns much, or a Spanish Civil War aid rifle. Barring that you might luck on one of the M44's that were imported from Russia shortly after the fall of the USSR and before various weapons were banned from importation from Russia. Some of these post war built M44's were originals, never issued and right out of the arsenal wrap. There weren't many of them brought in.
Mike, sometimes they forgot to put the refurb marks on , I have some refurbs like that, missing wood, or metal refurb stamps, but undeniably refurbs.
We are restricted in were we can import Mosins from, Russia is cut off to us for military weapons so all we have is what was in the Ukraine, and what they had to sell were the refurbs.

[Mike]

Mike, sometimes they forgot to put the refurb marks on , I have some refurbs like that, missing wood, or metal refurb stamps, but undeniably refurbs.
We are restricted in were we can import Mosins from, Russia is cut off to us for military weapons so all we have is what was in the Ukraine, and what they had to sell were the refurbs.

This one has neither, very few wood marks and very few metal marks, none of them being the known refurb marks. It looks really good, but in the few months I have been a Mosin owner I have learned enough to know it is definitely a refurb.

[Junk Yard Dog]

They could be sloppy with things like this.

[clayshooter2]

I do not dispute that the one I was trying to show was a refurb. My point was if any of you can see the pictures the barreled receiver, bolt body, and magazine are original matching. The stock was replaced, the butt plate is force matched, and their are replacement parts from both arsenals. It is no where near all original, but it is close as one is likely to get with a refurb, maybe as close as you will find with any Finn captures.

[Darryl]

I do not dispute that the one I was trying to show was a refurb. My point was if any of you can see the pictures the barreled receiver, bolt body, and magazine are original matching. The stock was replaced, the butt plate is force matched, and their are replacement parts from both arsenals. It is no where near all original, but it is close as one is likely to get with a refurb, maybe as close as you will find with any Finn captures.

No, I have several that are all original that are Finn captures. That is more common than a Russian all original. The Finns did not pull them all apart as much after the war to refurbish them. They sat for the most part as it. Only parts that were replaced during the war. So it is much more common to find an all original Finn captured Russian rifle.

I have a couple "non-refurb original" Russian rifles. They are not easy to find and even harder to find now. I only have one refurbished russian rifle that is all original. It is a M44 that was reissued after being refurbished and has the been there look now. I have never seen a refurbished rifle with all original parts on it.

In regards to the one you pointed out, I would like to see a better photo of those serial numbers on the parts. The 3 is in question as far as I am concerned, and also the 7 (but less so). It's not all original unless all of it is original. It's refurb rifle for sure. The only refurbs that the Russian tried to keep the parts together are the early refurbs and the sniper rifles. The sniper rifles because no two are drilled the same for the scopes and the cutout in the stocks, so if they mixed them up, they would never fit. That is why the serial numbers are on the mounts in electro pencil. But the regular refurbs were never treated like that.

Dolk