Anyone load 45-70 black?

[Willchef]

Does anyone have experience loading 45-70 with black powder? I want to work up a load using gallant polymer coated 405 grains with goex ffg powder out of a marlin 1895 cb carbine. I'm looking for a nice 1,000 fps range load, nothing extreme.

[Darryl]

Yes, but I loaded for a Trapdoor Carbine and I used a bullet I cast myself.
I also used ffg black powder.

I did not write down my powder loads and I kick myself in the butt for that!
But I could open up a re-load and see what the weight of the bullet and the powder is.
Maybe on Wednesday.

I know one thing, make damn sure there is no "empty space" in the cartridge. Air spaces are a No No. I use carded wool to fill the air spaces.
But if I re4member right, the size of the case is smaller then a Snider and with a good size bullet, the powder takes up almost all the space, so it is less of a problem.
I have a lot more experience with Snider re-loads then 45-70.
Good luck finding brass these days. Also primers are a little easier to find, but not by much.

Darryl

[Willchef]

Yes, but I loaded for a Trapdoor Carbine and I used a bullet I cast myself.
I also used ffg black powder.

I did not write down my powder loads and I kick myself in the butt for that!
But I could open up a re-load and see what the weight of the bullet and the powder is.
Maybe on Wednesday.

I know one thing, make damn sure there is no "empty space" in the cartridge. Air spaces are a No No. I use carded wool to fill the air spaces.
But if I re4member right, the size of the case is smaller then a Snider and with a good size bullet, the powder takes up almost all the space, so it is less of a problem.
I have a lot more experience with Snider re-loads then 45-70.
Good luck finding brass these days. Also primers are a little easier to find, but not by much.

Darryl

Thanks for feedback and tips. Ideally I would start developing a black powder load that would have a tad bit of compression with a 405 grain that way I don't have to worry about air space. I know with modern brass the interior volume will not hold 70 grains of bp so hopefully whatever that comes out to be would be a fairly moderate load. Do bp loads in cartridges require a different primer than usual? I was going to use the usual winchester large rifle. If it takes a special primers that's just another hard to find component I need to track down then I might just stick with smokeless imr 4064 loads lol.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Straight wall cases, I load mine, but I remember Turner Kirkland of Dixie gunworks formula. Fill the case to the top with FFG black powder and press a round ball down on top of it by hand. I guess that's as simple as it gets, .457 round ball as I recall. I did try that with the trapdoors, and it worked fine, even accurate as round ball fired from a rifles barrel tends to be. Yes, never, ever, leave an air gap between black powder and projectile in front stuffers or cartridges. The old balloon head cases held close to 70 grains of BP, but that was well over a century ago, nobody makes these cases anymore. Uncle didn't always load 45/70 to the full amount, the carbine loads were lighter, to do this use cream 'O' wheat cereal on top of the powder charge to take up case volume

[Darryl]

Thanks for feedback and tips. Ideally I would start developing a black powder load that would have a tad bit of compression with a 405 grain that way I don't have to worry about air space. I know with modern brass the interior volume will not hold 70 grains of bp so hopefully whatever that comes out to be would be a fairly moderate load. Do bp loads in cartridges require a different primer than usual? I was going to use the usual winchester large rifle. If it takes a special primers that's just another hard to find component I need to track down then I might just stick with smokeless imr 4064 loads lol.

No on the primers. Primers are the same for black powder as modern smokeless. Large rifle primers is the ticket.

Most loads of black powder into a 45-70 case will require a "little" compression. So, no "air gaps".
On smokless powder, there is no problem with "air gaps" I don't think.
It's just that black powder burns so darn fast, that "air gap" becomes a real problem.

Black powder vs smokeless powders. Well, smokeless is a whole lot cleaner to fire, but not even close as much fun. Something about that smoke and smell just can't be duplicated! LOL

Darryl

[Willchef]

Thanks for feedback and tips. Ideally I would start developing a black powder load that would have a tad bit of compression with a 405 grain that way I don't have to worry about air space. I know with modern brass the interior volume will not hold 70 grains of bp so hopefully whatever that comes out to be would be a fairly moderate load. Do bp loads in cartridges require a different primer than usual? I was going to use the usual winchester large rifle. If it takes a special primers that's just another hard to find component I need to track down then I might just stick with smokeless imr 4064 loads lol.

No on the primers. Primers are the same for black powder as modern smokeless. Large rifle primers is the ticket.

Most loads of black powder into a 45-70 case will require a "little" compression. So, no "air gaps".
On smokless powder, there is no problem with "air gaps" I don't think.
It's just that black powder burns so darn fast, that "air gap" becomes a real problem.

Black powder vs smokeless powders. Well, smokeless is a whole lot cleaner to fire, but not even close as much fun. Something about that smoke and smell just can't be duplicated! LOL

Darryl

Gotcha, I've heard some shooters at my range talk about putting ground corn or something in their bp loads to fill the gap for some light loads but I would like to avoid that extra step and just find the sweet spot with all the bp and 405 grain. If I can use regular primers with bp then I'll definitely load 45-70 in bp, save my precious 4064 for my mosins and garands

[Darryl]

Yes. Corn meal, cream of wheat, and a lot of things work just fine. But like you say, if there is no air gap, then it's not needed.

Yes, I use large rifle primers for BP all the time. Snider, 45-70, Spencer. works great every time!

Darryl

[Willchef]

Yes. Corn meal, cream of wheat, and a lot of things work just fine. But like you say, if there is no air gap, then it's not needed.

Yes, I use large rifle primers for BP all the time. Snider, 45-70, Spencer. works great every time!

Darryl

Roger that, have you ever used a fiber wad between bullet and black powder?

[Darryl]

Yes. Corn meal, cream of wheat, and a lot of things work just fine. But like you say, if there is no air gap, then it's not needed.

Yes, I use large rifle primers for BP all the time. Snider, 45-70, Spencer. works great every time!

Darryl

Roger that, have you ever used a fiber wad between bullet and black powder?

No, All my ammo I reload I use a lube on the grooves of the bullet. You don't need a "wad".

Could you use one, I think so. It might interfere with a bullet that is not flat on the bottom and is concave.

Concave bullet (on the bottom or powder side) are intended to "flare" the skirt of the bullet out (from the powder pressure) and make it fit "tighter" in the barrel on the rifling. If you interfere with that, you might loose some accuracy.
concave bottom bullet



I use a flat bottom bullet (most of the time)
Flat bottom bullet


Some people use a wad soaked in bees wax and olive oil as a "lube. I don't see why that would hurt anything. Fact is, doing that kind of lubing gets you less fouling (from the black powder) and allows you to fire more rounds before cleaning the barrel. Some say it improves accuracy. I don't know, because I don't use them. LOL I have very little fouling just lubing the grooves of the bullet.

The lube serves two purposes (as I see it),
1) It allows the bullet to slide down the barrel more easy with less "lead fouling".
2) it leaves a "film" on the barrel so the powder doesn't stick to the sides of the barrel.
The next round cleans out that lube and lays down a new layer for the powder to follow.
By doing this, the barrel fouls less.

I just re-worked my webpage here on loading the Snider round. So it works now.
There is a lot more work making Snider rounds because you have to "make" the case.
Also, it is so large, you have a air gap.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32248&p=432232#p432232

Darryl

PS: I know a little about re-loading black powder ammo, but I know very little about modern re-loading. That stuff scares me to death!

[Willchef]

Yes. Corn meal, cream of wheat, and a lot of things work just fine. But like you say, if there is no air gap, then it's not needed.

Yes, I use large rifle primers for BP all the time. Snider, 45-70, Spencer. works great every time!

Darryl

Roger that, have you ever used a fiber wad between bullet and black powder?

No, All my ammo I reload I use a lube on the grooves of the bullet. You don't need a "wad".

Could you use one, I think so. It might interfere with a bullet that is not flat on the bottom and is concave.

Concave bullet (on the bottom or powder side) are intended to "flare" the skirt of the bullet out (from the powder pressure) and make it fit "tighter" in the barrel on the rifling. If you interfere with that, you might loose some accuracy.
concave bottom bullet



I use a flat bottom bullet (most of the time)
Flat bottom bullet


Some people use a wad soaked in bees wax and olive oil as a "lube. I don't see why that would hurt anything. Fact is, doing that kind of lubing gets you less fouling (from the black powder) and allows you to fire more rounds before cleaning the barrel. Some say it improves accuracy. I don't know, because I don't use them. LOL I have very little fouling just lubing the grooves of the bullet.

The lube serves two purposes (as I see it),
1) It allows the bullet to slide down the barrel more easy with less "lead fouling".
2) it leaves a "film" on the barrel so the powder doesn't stick to the sides of the barrel.
The next round cleans out that lube and lays down a new layer for the powder to follow.
By doing this, the barrel fouls less.

I just re-worked my webpage here on loading the Snider round. So it works now.
There is a lot more work making Snider rounds because you have to "make" the case.
Also, it is so large, you have a air gap.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32248&p=432232#p432232

Darryl

PS: I know a little about re-loading black powder ammo, but I know very little about modern re-loading. That stuff scares me to death!

If I'm planning on using a gas checked bullet does that make any difference, wad or not? The bullet is still lubed. I like the idea of being able to use a wad if needed to mellow out a load if its too hot. Not looking for anything crazy out of my marlin 1895 cb but I think 1,000 fps with a 405 grain should be a nice range load.