Are we too soft with these rifle?

[son of a gun]

I mean, these guns were fired without cleaning during the war with corrosive ammo. So what would happen if you ignored it like they did? How long would it be before the effects would show? and how drastic would they be?


Please note that I do not by a long shot intend on abusing my rifles as listed above. I am a gun-care freak and don't let anything happen to my guns. I'm asking only to know.


-thanks!

[Darryl]

Good questions.

I think (today) it probably has to do with the conditions around the rifle a lot. In other words, if you live in the desert as opposed to the deep south. Humidity is what will really activate the salts you are talking about.

Just as an example, I'll bet people in the deep south with very high humidity have to clean and oil their rifles more often even if not fired because of the humidity. Me living in Northern California where the humidity is relatively very low I have to clean and oil less often.

I personally don't believe that your rifle will be harmed if you wait to get home and clean it there. I just don't see it happening that fast. Over night...maybe depending on where you are at. But note: the corrosive salts can act pretty fast to remove the shin off a very shinny boar. The really dark boars perhaps the damage is mostly done already.

But you are right, I'll bet they didn't call a seize fire during the war to clean their rifles if the battles went on for days. But there are those boars that are pretty bad too, so it that those rifles?

Good questions. I'm not an expert here and I keep my rifles clean and oiled and never push that envelope. I look forward to others thoughts on this.

Dolk

[Junk Yard Dog]

They did not ignore cleaning unless being in hourly contact with the enemy left no time for cleaning. A soldier ignores cleaning his weapon at his own peril once the Sargent see it, weapon inspection is SOP in any military outfit.

[Dragunov sniper 777]

i don't know ? these rifles have probably been in more war's than all other battle rifles combined , i know they have had probably the longest service life of a infantry weapon or close to it anyway , by today's standards they will still take a heavy charge of bullet and powder , and rank right up there as my favourite cartridge of all time , i don't think the Russian combat soldier ignored the cleaning of his weapon , a chrome lined bore would let you hold off on this chore till all the shooting was done for the day , but i think the average soldier took very good care of his rifle at the end of the day , cause his life depended on it and would probably face corporal punishment if he didn't, i love these rifles ..

[Darryl]

Yeah, I'll bet that was true.

That and the fact that if they were in constant contact with the enemy, they were probably firing every so often and that will eliminate any salt problems.

Dolk

[Shawnc]

With the amount of rifles that are counter bored, wouldn't that indicate a lot of improper cleaning methods, therefor a lot of cleaning? How's that for logic?

[Junk Yard Dog]

The extreme cold of the Russian winter would also help retard rusting for at least half of the year. The cleaning rod wear comes from poor supervision, the tool kit was issued with a muzzle protector, but I am guessing it was probably easily lost, or just not used allowing the ordinance steel cleaning rods to ruin the bore. Our own M1 Garands were cleaned from the muzzle without protection and using jointed steel cleaning rods that caused a great deal of wear. Uncle didn't care as he expected to change the barrels every three to five years anyway, but the Mosin was supposed to use one barrel for it's service life.

[Rongo]

With the amount of rifles that are counter bored, wouldn't that indicate a lot of improper cleaning methods, therefor a lot of cleaning? How's that for logic?

Yes it would. Those steel rods & the Soviet soldier were rough on their equipment.

[bunkysdad]

I hate to admit it, but I will. When I took my prized possession, my m39 to the range the first time, I thought I did a pretty god job cleaning it afterwards. I neglected to clean the bolt. I didn't think about it till later that day, then forgot again. I remembered it again a week later. When I checked it there was a rusty ring around the primer hole in the bolt head. It cleaned up ok but there is a discolored area that that is almost light pitting. You se this on a lot of Milsurps. I didn't cause it from this one time, but because it es already there I believe it made it easier to begin rusting again. Clean the bolts thoroughly, the primer is where the salt comes from.

[SA1911a1]

I decomissioned a Chinese type 53 rifle last month after finding it was unsafe to shoot. After its final shot I left it uncleaned for two days before looking at it again. The entire bore was orange with rust. I suspect that as soon as the fighting stopped and things calmed down most soldiers pulled out their cleaning rods and a piece of burlap and took care of their rifle. You do things like that if your life depends on it.

[MarkB]

A few weeks back I took the 91/30 shooting and after I was done had some shit that needed to be dealt with and left the rifle in the building for about a day without being cleaned. When I went to clean it there was as someone else mentioned orange rust in the bore. It wasnt real bad but it was there so now I clean asap. Mostly all I shoot is surplus.

[tjtM38]

Something to remember is the average Russian conscript had no conception of the rifle as his best friend. He didn't own it, as it was the property of the Soviet Union. Under combat conditions, if he was smart, he did the best he could to field clean with the issued equipment, which wasn't very capable. If he became a good soldier and a good shot lasting more than the two-week average lifetime of a Russian soldier on the Eastern front, he probably learned to take better care of his rifle and think of it as the saviour of his life. If he was fortunate enough to get a break and go to the rear, I'm sure he had some more time to disassemble the weapon and detail clean it after dragging it through the mud and snow at the front.

You're right, we probably treat these things with kid gloves and tender loving care compared to the soldier at Stalingrad. But then the situation is different 70+ years later. We own the weapon; we want to preserve it as a piece history and we know the consequences of shooting 1970 surplus ammo in a humid, corrosive environment. Therefore, we clean on the range and follow up with rust prevention when we get home. Nobody is shooting at us (hopefully) to prevent us from doing what we want to do -- keep our rifle nice and clean.

[Junk Yard Dog]

[tjtM38]

Gotta love the Brits; LMAO

[entropy]

I personally don't believe that your rifle will be harmed if you wait to get home and clean it there. I just don't see it happening that fast.

I have. Two hours. Within two hours of firing, WH had a Mosin start to form rust in the barrel. We were out shoooting during a snowstorm, and by the time he got home, he had rust forming. I have personally had it happen overnight. I work nights, so one day after a range session, I just went to sleep when I got home, instead if cleaning the Mosins I'd fired. I did them in the morning after work, and already had rust forming. This was in the summer, in WI, where the humidity can be in the 90% range, which it was. I will never, EVER fail to clean after a range session again after that experience!

[martin08]

And for those who use "non-corrosive" ammo, I always thought that the following demonstration held some valuable lessons.

http://7.62x54r.net/Forums/index.php?topic=7987.0

Bottom line: Clean your rifle within a few hours of firing, regardless of ammo/primer choice.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Before I ever shot a round of corrosive primed ammo I shot pounds of black powder. With black powder you clean up right away or say goodbye to any hope of a spotless bore, so when I started with corrosive primed cartridge ammo I just treated it like black powder and have never had a rusted bore incident. I clean at the range when I am shooting away from home, I bring USGI WW2 military bore cleaner with me, clean the weapons just like GI Joe did in 1944, and once I get home several hours later they get the full boiling water treatment. When shooting at home I just clean as soon as I am done shooting using boiling water and all the rest.

[Darryl]

We are not at war with these rifles. We have no excuse not to clean them as soon as possible.

I think if we remember these rifles are part of history. Cleaning them as soon as possible is only showing respect for that history.
These rifle are only in our custody for a short time and they should leave our custody in as close to the same shape as they entered it.
If we abuse them it is on our shoulder that history is slowly erased.
This is what will help them be there hundreds of years from now!



I often wonder what if someone didn't take care of this musket along it's travels, ....it wouldn't be here now.
It is sometimes a heavy burden, but one I have accepted with all of my firearms.

Dolk

[audadvnc]

This discussion reminds me of looking at photos of late WW2 aircraft in the Pacific theater, when an American fighter plane's useful lifespan was measured in weeks from the time it arrived to the day it was pushed off the end of a carrier (or worse). Those machines were driven hard. They weren't designed to last 70 years, but we still have a few around to marvel at, due to the attentions of generations of history buffs.

[WeldonHunter]

I live in the south so I wouldn't even think of not cleaning after shooting corrosive ammo but I can tell you this. I lived in California which is mostly a dry climate and my first Mosin Nagant, a Polish M44, shows the effects of not cleaning it. Keep in mind I bought this gun 12 years ago and don't remember what the bore looked like when I bought but I know I shot it a few times and didn't clean it for weeks sometimes if not months. It's bore looks like a sewer pipe. I didn't know about corrosive ammo back then. I bought a tin a gunshow and went shooting. That said I can tell you from experience as a mechanic for over 30 years that just about any metal once left to the elements unprotected will start rusting, especially cast iron, almost imediately especially in humid conditions. I've cleaned flywheels that are back from being machined to remove the protective coating they put on them after machining before installation and noticed rust forming. I also noticed the last time I shot one of my Mosins when I poured boiling water down the barrel which removes the salts from corrosive ammo that little spots of fresh orange rust started forming in about 15 minutes. I poured boiling water through it and let it sit for a few mintues while I got the other cleaning stuff out. Before I started running a cleaning patch through it with solvent I looked into the chamber with a small flashlight and that's when I noticed it had started to rust already.