The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

OK so I kind of have my sights set on one the the Sk.Y M-39's.

I was wondering what the various opinions are on fair market value?

What adds to it or detracts from.

I have found a few threads here and there but not anything current, so looking for some opinions.

Thanks!

$400-$500 all matching correct stock cartouche. Matching is barrel, bolt, and Floorplate. Bonus for stamped receiver serial instead of dot matrix. Obviously condition has large effect on price.


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capt14k wrote:$400-$500 all matching correct stock cartouche. Matching is barrel, bolt, and Floorplate. Bonus for stamped receiver serial instead of dot matrix. Obviously condition has large effect on price.


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+1 to caps comments above...

I would add that it took me a few years to pick up a decent SkY example, including NOT jumping on a very nice one fast enough about a year ago (like an idiot), so my opinion is if you find one that looks decent with a matching bolt for less than $500, buy it. You can always upgrade to a nicer or more fully matching example later if you encounter one.


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TnBuckeye wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:03 pm

capt14k wrote:$400-$500 all matching correct stock cartouche. Matching is barrel, bolt, and Floorplate. Bonus for stamped receiver serial instead of dot matrix. Obviously condition has large effect on price.


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+1 to caps comments above...

I would add that it took me a few years to pick up a decent SkY example, including NOT jumping on a very nice one fast enough about a year ago (like an idiot), so my opinion is if you find one that looks decent with a matching bolt for less than $500, buy it. You can always upgrade to a nicer or more fully matching example later if you encounter one.


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+1 but I would ad bore condition as well. I only know of SAKO stamped M-39's that had matching floor plates once in a while. That doesn't mean that the SK.Y's didn't have them. I've just never seen one. To determine the correct price, I always go to the "completed" sales in GunBroker and search. You can find what people have actually paid for them. And, there have been a few of the SK.Y's sold recently.

qz2026 wrote:

TnBuckeye wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:03 pm

capt14k wrote:$400-$500 all matching correct stock cartouche. Matching is barrel, bolt, and Floorplate. Bonus for stamped receiver serial instead of dot matrix. Obviously condition has large effect on price.


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+1 to caps comments above...

I would add that it took me a few years to pick up a decent SkY example, including NOT jumping on a very nice one fast enough about a year ago (like an idiot), so my opinion is if you find one that looks decent with a matching bolt for less than $500, buy it. You can always upgrade to a nicer or more fully matching example later if you encounter one.


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+1 but I would ad bore condition as well. I only know of SAKO stamped M-39's that had matching floor plates once in a while. That doesn't mean that the SK.Y's didn't have them. I've just never seen one. To determine the correct price, I always go to the "completed" sales in GunBroker and search. You can find what people have actually paid for them. And, there have been a few of the SK.Y's sold recently.

That’s a good point about GB completed auctions. They are a strong resource.

For the OP I would just say you may want to modify what you find as the average sold price for an item on GB if you are buying locally.

For example I have found that in my area items do NOT tend to sell for the average I observe for similar items on GB. This would include items for sale in shops, at shows, and online. But I still use the GB average as a guide, deduct a bit, and run with that as an approximate value for stuff I buy/sell.

Your area may be different and it is certainly all supply and demand driven. Just thought I would share an approach I learned through my brief collecting experience to this point.


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qz2026 wrote:

TnBuckeye wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:03 pm

capt14k wrote:$400-$500 all matching correct stock cartouche. Matching is barrel, bolt, and Floorplate. Bonus for stamped receiver serial instead of dot matrix. Obviously condition has large effect on price.


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+1 to caps comments above...

I would add that it took me a few years to pick up a decent SkY example, including NOT jumping on a very nice one fast enough about a year ago (like an idiot), so my opinion is if you find one that looks decent with a matching bolt for less than $500, buy it. You can always upgrade to a nicer or more fully matching example later if you encounter one.


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+1 but I would ad bore condition as well. I only know of SAKO stamped M-39's that had matching floor plates once in a while. That doesn't mean that the SK.Y's didn't have them. I've just never seen one. To determine the correct price, I always go to the "completed" sales in GunBroker and search. You can find what people have actually paid for them. And, there have been a few of the SK.Y's sold recently.

Mangrove actually posted a document showing civil guard orders definitely had matching floorplates as ordered. In fact all 3 VKT, SAKO, and Sky did on wartime rifles. I have all 3 with matching floorplate, stamped receiver, and Cartouches, and yes good bore is important.

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I remember when these funny looking old " Russian" rifles were $25-$45 if you could find a buyer at all.

qz2026 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:26 am +1 but I would ad bore condition as well. I only know of SAKO stamped M-39's that had matching floor plates once in a while. That doesn't mean that the SK.Y's didn't have them. I've just never seen one.

Fully original Civil Guard m/39 would have matching receiver, magazine, bolt, no [SA] marking(s) and stock without post-war reinforcements.

From the 1940 m/39 contract between SAKO and the Civil Guard: "The rifles are marked with a number and stamped the same way as the rifles ordered by the Ordnance Department of the Headquarters of the Finnish Defence Forces. However, the barrels are striked with a marking "SK.Y" and the stocks with the Civil Guard shield like in the m/28-30 rifles. The last four numbers from the serial number of the rifle are striked on top of the bolt handle. The bottom of the magazine is marked likewise [with the same number]".

From the 1942 m/39 contract between SAKO and the Finnish Defence Forces: "The client gives separate orders of the number series used to mark the rifles. The last four numbers from the serial number of the rifle are striked on top of the bolt handle. The bottom of the magazine is marked likewise [with the same number]".

Mangrove wrote:

qz2026 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:26 am +1 but I would ad bore condition as well. I only know of SAKO stamped M-39's that had matching floor plates once in a while. That doesn't mean that the SK.Y's didn't have them. I've just never seen one.

Fully original Civil Guard m/39 would have matching receiver, magazine, bolt, no [SA] marking(s) and stock without post-war reinforcements.

From the 1940 m/39 contract between SAKO and the Civil Guard: "The rifles are marked with a number and stamped the same way as the rifles ordered by the Ordnance Department of the Headquarters of the Finnish Defence Forces. However, the barrels are striked with a marking "SK.Y" and the stocks with the Civil Guard shield like in the m/28-30 rifles. The last four numbers from the serial number of the rifle are striked on top of the bolt handle. The bottom of the magazine is marked likewise [with the same number]".

From the 1942 m/39 contract between SAKO and the Finnish Defence Forces: "The client gives separate orders of the number series used to mark the rifles. The last four numbers from the serial number of the rifle are striked on top of the bolt handle. The bottom of the magazine is marked likewise [with the same number]".

Mangrove made me think about another “nice to find” feature...some Sk.Y M39’s will have a civil guard district number stamped on them, like this for example...



I don’t know that this feature alone would cause me to pay more but it certainly would be cool to find.

I would be curious if we know any definitive numbers on the % of these that did receive a civil guard district number? Or even an educated guess?


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TnBuckeye wrote:

Mangrove wrote:

qz2026 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:26 am +1 but I would ad bore condition as well. I only know of SAKO stamped M-39's that had matching floor plates once in a while. That doesn't mean that the SK.Y's didn't have them. I've just never seen one.

Fully original Civil Guard m/39 would have matching receiver, magazine, bolt, no [SA] marking(s) and stock without post-war reinforcements.

From the 1940 m/39 contract between SAKO and the Civil Guard: "The rifles are marked with a number and stamped the same way as the rifles ordered by the Ordnance Department of the Headquarters of the Finnish Defence Forces. However, the barrels are striked with a marking "SK.Y" and the stocks with the Civil Guard shield like in the m/28-30 rifles. The last four numbers from the serial number of the rifle are striked on top of the bolt handle. The bottom of the magazine is marked likewise [with the same number]".

From the 1942 m/39 contract between SAKO and the Finnish Defence Forces: "The client gives separate orders of the number series used to mark the rifles. The last four numbers from the serial number of the rifle are striked on top of the bolt handle. The bottom of the magazine is marked likewise [with the same number]".

Mangrove made me think about another “nice to find” feature...some Sk.Y M39’s will have a civil guard district number stamped on them, like this for example...



I don’t know that this feature alone would cause me to pay more but it certainly would be cool to find.

I would be curious if we know any definitive numbers on the % of these that did receive a civil guard district number? Or even an educated guess?


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All of my Sky M39 had a guard district

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I think I am going to re-adjust my search for a Sk.Y, one just went for over a $1000.00

To much for my budget.

conmcb25 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:57 am I think I am going to re-adjust my search for a Sk.Y, one just went for over a $1000.00

To much for my budget.

They all shoot the same(well) no matter the maker.

conmcb25 wrote:I think I am going to re-adjust my search for a Sk.Y, one just went for over a $1000.00

To much for my budget.

There had to be something special or bidders were drunk. I got them in the last year $400 flame stock mismatched floorplate and $360 all matching stamped receiver number no dot matrix both with civil guard districts and Antique. Both have correct stocks. Almost bought another all matching correct stock and guard district for $410 2 weeks ago.

If not special let me guess Milstuff was the seller? Burns gets top dollar.

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capt14k wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:02 am

conmcb25 wrote:I think I am going to re-adjust my search for a Sk.Y, one just went for over a $1000.00

To much for my budget.

There had to be something special or bidders were drunk. I got them in the last year $400 flame stock mismatched floorplate and $360 all matching stamped receiver number no dot matrix both with civil guard districts and Antique. Both have correct stocks. Almost bought another all matching correct stock and guard district for $410 2 weeks ago.

If not special let me guess Milstuff was the seller? Burns gets top dollar.

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Tanner Sports Center.

If you can let me know where you found your weapons, I would appreciate it. But I am not seeing ANYTHING less than $400.00 - one went last week for about 350 but it was a tad bit beat up. I am thinking of just getting a nice VKT locally (Oregon/ Washington) for 500 because its got a nice bore and the rest of the gun is good and its on an antique receiver so I avoid the FFL transfers.

But I haven't seen anything go for less than $400 (I think it was a run of the mill VKT) except for one in the last couple of weeks, and that was a little beat up. I probably should have tried to grab it.

I know they are only going to go up in all probability but I may just get a good shooter and call it good for now. I am going to be making some more money in the next 15 months or so, so I might be able to squeeze a better one at that time. And with three boys in there 20's, more than one wont go unused

conmcb25 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:20 am

capt14k wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:02 am

conmcb25 wrote:I think I am going to re-adjust my search for a Sk.Y, one just went for over a $1000.00

To much for my budget.

There had to be something special or bidders were drunk. I got them in the last year $400 flame stock mismatched floorplate and $360 all matching stamped receiver number no dot matrix both with civil guard districts and Antique. Both have correct stocks. Almost bought another all matching correct stock and guard district for $410 2 weeks ago.

If not special let me guess Milstuff was the seller? Burns gets top dollar.

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Tanner Sports Center.

If you can let me know where you found your weapons, I would appreciate it. But I am not seeing ANYTHING less than $400.00 - one went last week for about 350 but it was a tad bit beat up. I am thinking of just getting a nice VKT locally (Oregon/ Washington) for 500 because its got a nice bore and the rest of the gun is good and its on an antique receiver so I avoid the FFL transfers.

But I haven't seen anything go for less than $400 (I think it was a run of the mill VKT) except for one in the last couple of weeks, and that was a little beat up. I probably should have tried to grab it.

I know they are only going to go up in all probability but I may just get a good shooter and call it good for now. I am going to be making some more money in the next 15 months or so, so I might be able to squeeze a better one at that time. And with three boys in there 20's, more than one wont go unused

All M39's are built to the same specs no matter what year or marking is on them, VKT or Tikka, whatever, all are the same rifle. $500 is high to me, but if I didn't have one I would pay it. The pre 1899 receiver is a big plus so Uncle doesn't need to know that you have it. Beat up looking doesn't matter if the bore and crown are clean, looks don't improve, or detract from performance.

Some M39's do tend to be slightly more accurate than others. I find my late dates 1967-70, and the 48 marked to be slightly above the others. This would be because they were special built to be marksmanship training rifles and the Finn's seemed to have endless time to tweak the shims in them to maximize performance. Some of these rifles have ten plus or more shims all over the underside of the action. We are talking the difference of 1Moa at 100 yards , Regular wartime date 2-3 MOA, 1967 1.5-2 MOA
Mind you that's with me behind the trigger at short range of 100 yards. A real Finnish military marksman could probably clip a fly's balls at 1000 yards with it.

GunBroker. The $410 Sky you should be able to see under completed items.

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Junk Yard Dog wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:01 pm This would be because they were special built to be marksmanship training rifles and the Finn's seemed to have endless time to tweak the shims in them to maximize performance. Some of these rifles have ten plus or more shims all over the underside of the action. We are talking the difference of 1Moa at 100 yards , Regular wartime date 2-3 MOA, 1967 1.5-2 MOA

I don't know where this myth originates, but I haven't seen a single document backing it up. The 1960s and 1970s dated m/39 were assembled from spare parts after the m/62 had been adapted in 1962, it had been in production for several years and tens of thousands of AK-47 had been imported to the country. The Finnish Defence Forces already had created the m/28-57 for marksmanship training in 1957. They also stopped training conscripts with bolt-action rifles (safe for sniper variants) as their weapon in 1973.

According to factory acceptance tests, the average result for a 1943 m/39 with D-166 was 2 MOA (8 best hits out of 10) or 0.9 MOA at 300 metres (the best 4 hits). The post-war tests with different ammunition resulted in a bit better accuracy, but not a 1 MOA one. If the post-war rifles are more accurate in general, it is probably because many of them have unused barrels.

TKIV 85, which is based on m/39, is expected to achieve < 1 MOA at 0-300 metres and < 1.5 MOA at 300-600 metres.

Mangrove wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:07 pm

Junk Yard Dog wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:01 pm This would be because they were special built to be marksmanship training rifles and the Finn's seemed to have endless time to tweak the shims in them to maximize performance. Some of these rifles have ten plus or more shims all over the underside of the action. We are talking the difference of 1Moa at 100 yards , Regular wartime date 2-3 MOA, 1967 1.5-2 MOA

I don't know where this myth originates, but I haven't seen a single document backing it up. The 1960s and 1970s dated m/39 were assembled from spare parts after the m/62 had been adapted in 1962, it had been in production for several years and tens of thousands of AK-47 had been imported to the country. The Finnish Defence Forces already had created the m/28-57 for marksmanship training in 1957. They also stopped training conscripts with bolt-action rifles (safe for sniper variants) as their weapon in 1973.

According to factory acceptance tests, the average result for a 1943 m/39 with D-166 was 2 MOA (8 best hits out of 10) or 0.9 MOA at 300 metres (the best 4 hits). The post-war tests with different ammunition resulted in a bit better accuracy, but not a 1 MOA one. If the post-war rifles are more accurate in general, it is probably because many of them have unused barrels.

TKIV 85, which is based on m/39, is expected to achieve < 1 MOA at 0-300 metres and < 1.5 MOA at 300-600 metres.

Several former members of the Defense Force contacted me through youtube over the years to share recollections of these rifles. One reported using them in training as late as 1982. All who mentioned them had served during the Cold War era post WW2, 1960's- 1980's. One might be pulling my leg, but more than that telling similar tales are unlikely to be inventing shit to screw with the American collector. I had a friend who was in Navy basic training in the mid 1980's who drilled and trained with WW2 era M1 Garands, a rifle considered long obsolete by them, and not even used by the State Guards much anymore. Outdated equipment can remain in use for various reasons. I am sure during that same period in the 80's US Marine recruits on Parris Island would have been training with M16's, not Garands, but then their mission is more rifle combat oriented than soon to be flat top sailors. Nobody told me they were issued M39's as a primary weapon, only that they had fired them on the range in training and competition. They also didn't mention what their MOS was, I assume the Finnish Defense force has cooks, storekeepers, and clerks who maybe didn't need to be issued the most modern rifles. The Myth in this case seems to be originating with your own countrymen, as there is no profit in it for them I am not about to accuse them of lying.

The shooting data mentioned ( Regular wartime date 2-3 MOA, 1967 1.5-2 MOA) is my own results using my rifles, my 100 yard range, commie era ammo, and my less than stellar marksmanship skills. I would hope young Finnish soldiers would be able to do better with young eyes, steady hands, and professional NCO's standing by to correct their errors.

I forgot, another thing that seems to back up the rifle range story is that every one of my late date, no date, or the 48 marked rifles, and I have at least eight of these type, had a large amount of sand embedded in the same black graphite grease the lined the action under the wood. Sand that looked identical to the sort I use in the sandbags on my shooting bench. I found pine needles and other mess under the wood of some of my wartime dated rifles, the hang tags indicating inspections in the 1950's, but not that particular sort of sand. I did save pictures of this, and I will try to find one on my old photobucket account.

Junk Yard Dog wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:46 pm Several former members of the Defense Force contacted me through youtube over the years to share recollections of these rifles. One reported using them in training as late as 1982. All who mentioned them had served during the Cold War era post WW2, 1960's- 1980's. […]
Nobody told me they were issued M39's as a primary weapon, only that they had fired them on the range in training and competition. They also didn't mention what their MOS was, I assume the Finnish Defense force has cooks, storekeepers, and clerks who maybe didn't need to be issued the most modern rifles.

I would love to know more about the garrisons these individuals served in and when. Certainly some amount of bolt-action rifles might have been occasionally used for various reasons, but they were not issued to conscripts as their primary weapon after 1973. Finnish Defence Forces still occasionally issue m/39 to parade troops, but they're not officially listed anywhere as part of their arsenal. After 1973, rear troops would have been mostly equipped with RK-62, AK-47. DP-27, Sten, Suomi and/or pistols during mobilisation. Depots also stopped making major repairs to the Mosins during the 1980s.

Below is a photograph taken in an artillery firing range at Rovajärvi, Lapland, in 1987.