My MN's barrel end is counterbored. It doesn't bother me that it brings down the value because I will never sell it. It's very accurate and hits everything I shoot at.
When these rifles were refurbed, was it the Russians that did the counterbore process? What did that process entail? How did they determine if a barrel end needed to be counterbored? I do have a little knowledge about counterboring, I'm just interested in the MN's counterbore process.
Counterbored
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Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Counterbored
If it is working then the Soviets did it, they did it because only the last half inch, to maybe an inch at most f the rifling was worn, the counterbore set the barrels crown back into the bore were the rifling was still good. They did this because replacing barrels is expensive. There are many refurb Mosins out there that didn't get a counterbore, they still shoot OK, but a counterbore would have improved that. There are others with shot out crowns that they missed entirely. Counterbore should have no impact on the rifles resale value, it is an improvement after all.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Counterbored
It should not hurt the value to a knowledgeable buyer.
The Soviets measured the muzzle for wear. The wear was usually caused by hasty cleaning, from the muzzle with the rifle's steel cleaning rod. If the bore was worn to a certain level, that would affect the accuracy of the rifle, they counterbored it. (The soviet armorers had a tool in their portable tool kits to measure muzzle wear) They may have even counterbored rifles that did not need it during the refurb process just to keep the process consistent. (less decisions to make) The process itself is simple, just a specialized drill bit with a bore guide and a fixture to keep everything perfectly aligned. It was a quick, cheap fix to restore accuracy, and therefore a good thing for today's shooter.
The Soviets measured the muzzle for wear. The wear was usually caused by hasty cleaning, from the muzzle with the rifle's steel cleaning rod. If the bore was worn to a certain level, that would affect the accuracy of the rifle, they counterbored it. (The soviet armorers had a tool in their portable tool kits to measure muzzle wear) They may have even counterbored rifles that did not need it during the refurb process just to keep the process consistent. (less decisions to make) The process itself is simple, just a specialized drill bit with a bore guide and a fixture to keep everything perfectly aligned. It was a quick, cheap fix to restore accuracy, and therefore a good thing for today's shooter.
Aut Pax Aut Bellum
Re: Counterbored
Thanks for that information.
I am really starting to kick myself in the rear for not paying attention to what I had back in the day. SMH!
I am really starting to kick myself in the rear for not paying attention to what I had back in the day. SMH!
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steelbuttplate
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Re: Counterbored
My '36 Tula Hex w/ counterbore shoots with the best of them. Does a Finn counterbore have the same bevel that Finnish made rifles have in the muzzle ??
" There are two kinds of people, the good people and the ones that aggravate the hell out of the good people"
Re: Counterbored
Mine doesn't.steelbuttplate wrote:... Does a Finn counterbore have the same bevel that Finnish made rifles have in the muzzle ??
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
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Longcolt44
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Re: Counterbored
My M24 has a conterbore of 1 1/4" and it shoots just fine.
FREEDOM...USE IT OR LOSE IT!!
Re: Counterbored
One of my former Finn owned Chatelleraults has a 5 and 1/2 inch counter bore and shoots just fine! Hard to believe but a fact! No counter bore has a taper exactly like a normal muzzle as that would be impossible to really do. It just makes sure the last rifling the bullet hits doesn't start it tumbling or the such. If the crown is screwed up it may do just that even though the rifled portion before it has the twist and later flight decided further toward the chamber already. That sort of jumping off point into free flight can screw the accuracy up like mad if it unsettles the bullet at the last second. Years ago Kevin Carney pointed out to me that the Finns it seemed to him used the counter boring process as a sort of protection for bores they considered good and wanted to protect. I had asked him why several real good bores I had in my collection had like 1/4 to 1/8 inch counter bores that seemed totally unnecessary considering the rest of the bore was pristine. This was just a thought he had and often I see this happening to rifles I have collected over the years. Right? Wrong? Who really knows! Interesting thought though! Bill 
Re: Counterbored
Has anyone here had their Mosin or other milsurp counterbored? I may need that done on at least one of my Mosins, because the rifling appears weak at the top.
Re: Counterbored
How does it shoot?
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Re: Counterbored
No 91/30 will be as good as an M39, I think it is safe to say. We frown on advising altering these rifles in any way. Look at it this way. What you have is a weapon used in arguably the greatest conflict in history. If you had a sword used in the Crusades, would you sharpen it? It is yours to do with what you want, but this is a preservation forum, not an accuracy forum.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Re: Counterbored
I'm not alternating the look of the gun, because the bore is on the inside of the gun technically, just like the bolt spring and firing pin.
To me, the engineers who designed this gun didn't intend for it to never be maintained, including replacing parts as needed. The armorers who slaved over these weapons did technically 'alter' them, because they wanted the gun to continue functioning the way the engineers intended it to. They wanted the men who used them to continue to entrust their lives to it. And as long as I'm keeping to the engineers' vision of what this weapon was intended to do in the era it was designed in, I feel I am doing history due honor.
This is why I abhore the idea of 'wall hangers'. A 'wall hanger' is already one step removed to what was a real weapon. A real weapon is something you can trust your life to, a wall hanger is a mere memento. It's not the real gun anymore (regardless of how the law defines it).
And would I sharpen a sword used in a medeval battle? If I wanted it to be a weapon, yes I would. Because the man who shaped that thing with a hammer and anvil intended this thing to be sharp and battle ready.
To each their own.
P.S. Most people won't even SEE the bore unless they walk right up to the gun, with a magnifying glass and light. And guess what? I'm willing to bet 8 out of 10 of them will be looking at it for one reason only: they want to shoot it AND want to get good groups with it!
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Darryl
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Re: Counterbored
So, by your definition, I should pull my Charleville 1763 (used in the Revolutionary War) off the wall and rebuild it so it can be fired?
Or maybe my 1630-50's Snaphence Lock musket?
Doesn't seem right to me.
How far would you go? Re polish them to bright steel?
Re-brown the locks?
Re-finish the stocks?
We don't really care what you do to your rifle. No one is telling anyone here that you can't do that to your property.
You just can't do it and show it here. We are not interested in a rifle that has been "restored" to new.
Replacing part is about where we draw the line.....HERE.
Darryl
Or maybe my 1630-50's Snaphence Lock musket?
Doesn't seem right to me.
How far would you go? Re polish them to bright steel?
Re-brown the locks?
Re-finish the stocks?
We don't really care what you do to your rifle. No one is telling anyone here that you can't do that to your property.
You just can't do it and show it here. We are not interested in a rifle that has been "restored" to new.
Replacing part is about where we draw the line.....HERE.
Darryl
Re: Counterbored
Darryl it appears you're the boss on this board, so you set the rules. I'm here at your pleasure.
I was not aware that there was some rule on this board about not discussing the restoration of a Mosin Nagant to what I would call 'operating condition', in other words doing what would amount to rearsenaling/refurbishing them. I'm not talking about putting an Archangel stock, or cutting it to an obrez, or changing the caliber, or anything else that would take it outside of it's historical context as originally concieved of by Mosin and the engineers that toiled over the rifle's design, to solve the needs of the then military.
I own firearms for two reasons: for their historical value, and as functional firearms. Both of those things are equally important to me. To relive the history, I want the feel of what it was like to fire the rifle when it was considered fit for combat. And from everything I've seen and read, counterboring was part of what was done as standard firearms maintenance at that time, sort of like grinding and polishing the rotors on your car.
If I wanted functional alone, I'd get a new 308 bolt action to get a Mosin equivalent firepower/caliber and call it a day. If I wanted historical alone, I wouldn't care how shot out the bore was. Maybe I'd like that even more. Perhaps you feel that way. No problem.
If I can't ask questions of people here about the restoration of Mosin Nagants to functional condition, as envisioned by Major General Sergei Ivanovich Mosin, then I'm obviously in the wrong place.
I was not aware that there was some rule on this board about not discussing the restoration of a Mosin Nagant to what I would call 'operating condition', in other words doing what would amount to rearsenaling/refurbishing them. I'm not talking about putting an Archangel stock, or cutting it to an obrez, or changing the caliber, or anything else that would take it outside of it's historical context as originally concieved of by Mosin and the engineers that toiled over the rifle's design, to solve the needs of the then military.
I own firearms for two reasons: for their historical value, and as functional firearms. Both of those things are equally important to me. To relive the history, I want the feel of what it was like to fire the rifle when it was considered fit for combat. And from everything I've seen and read, counterboring was part of what was done as standard firearms maintenance at that time, sort of like grinding and polishing the rotors on your car.
If I wanted functional alone, I'd get a new 308 bolt action to get a Mosin equivalent firepower/caliber and call it a day. If I wanted historical alone, I wouldn't care how shot out the bore was. Maybe I'd like that even more. Perhaps you feel that way. No problem.
If I can't ask questions of people here about the restoration of Mosin Nagants to functional condition, as envisioned by Major General Sergei Ivanovich Mosin, then I'm obviously in the wrong place.
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Darryl
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Re: Counterbored
First off, JYD is also a "Boss" here and owns 1/2. The other Administrators are also "bosses" and have the ability to make "changes" on the forums.
When you joined the forums it asked you to read the rules first.
https://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/app.php/rules
They are also at the top of every page. It is pretty clear what we believe and again, we are not telling you that you can't do anything. We just don't care for anything that lowers the value of a collectable rifle which we believe these rifle are. And we won't promote it. Nothing "permanent" and "reversible".
If I can't ask questions of people here about the restoration of Mosin Nagants to functional condition, as envisioned by Major General Sergei Ivanovich Mosin, then I'm obviously in the wrong place.
When you joined the forums it asked you to read the rules first.
https://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/app.php/rules
They are also at the top of every page. It is pretty clear what we believe and again, we are not telling you that you can't do anything. We just don't care for anything that lowers the value of a collectable rifle which we believe these rifle are. And we won't promote it. Nothing "permanent" and "reversible".
If I can't ask questions of people here about the restoration of Mosin Nagants to functional condition, as envisioned by Major General Sergei Ivanovich Mosin, then I'm obviously in the wrong place.
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Darryl
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Re: Counterbored
First off, JYD is also a "Boss" here and owns 1/2. The other Administrators are also "bosses" and have the ability to make "changes" on the forums.
When you joined the forums it asked you to read the rules first.
https://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/app.php/rules
They are also at the top of every page. It is pretty clear what we believe and again, we are not telling you that you can't do anything. We just don't care for anything that lowers the value of a collectable rifle which we believe these rifle are. And we won't promote it. Nothing "permanent" and "reversible".
Darryl
When you joined the forums it asked you to read the rules first.
https://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/app.php/rules
They are also at the top of every page. It is pretty clear what we believe and again, we are not telling you that you can't do anything. We just don't care for anything that lowers the value of a collectable rifle which we believe these rifle are. And we won't promote it. Nothing "permanent" and "reversible".
You are welcome to ask questions and ------ WE will tell you our thoughts, and if that bothers that much then, maybe you are on the wrong forums.
Darryl
Re: Counterbored
I'll admit I didn't catch all the details here, though I do maintain that I do not consider counterboring to be a modification, more of a repair to a firearm that has ceased operating according to spec (and a repair that falls in line with historical practices). Just like polishing rotors on a car, some repairs require removing a piece of the original so it can still work to spec.
I was a bit thrown when I saw you write "You just can't do it and show it here. We are not interested in a rifle that has been "restored" to new. Replacing part is about where we draw the line.....HERE." - that implied that questions of this sort were not welcome.You are welcome to ask questions and ------ WE will tell you our thoughts, and if that bothers that much then, maybe you are on the wrong forums.
Anyway, I think I'm a bit more attuned to what this board is about now, I guess we just have differences on what exactly constitutes modification.
Personally I'm very passionate about these rifles for historical reasons, my ancestors fought with them. I likewise have strong respect for the engineering aspect of the rifle and in my humble opinion, a rifle that has been made to function according to its original arsenal spec is the best way to experience them. It's a great credit to the engineers that what they thought of over 100 years ago can still be made to effectively function as intended, even if it doesn't fit neatly into modern military doctrine. Try using a current day iPhone in twenty years when its memory chips will be completely useless.
As for an 18th century rifle being restored to function, if it doesn't risk destroying the gun I'd personally do it. But that's me.