I had to get a Mosin, a few questions...

[jurob]

Couldn't pass up the deal end ended up buying 2!
My questions are about the sporterized Mosin that I got.

Based on the pictures, can anybody tell me it's history? I would like to turn it back to stock appearing like the 1943 that I also got. Is there a certain year of stock that I need since the older guns had longer barrels then most? Only the receiver and bolt match (and I assume the barrel) so I know it will never be number matching as I don't have the butt plate and the magazine is not matching, but I would still like it to look like it came from 1895. I don't see import marks.

1 last question about the magazine. The magazine on the 95 and the 43 have 2 numbers, 1 is crossed out and there is a second. On the 43 a number is crossed out and the second number matches the 43's butt, receiver, bolt, etc...








Why are these numbers crossed out on the sights?


Tks

[Junk Yard Dog]

What you have is a Finn used M1891 rifle, the first Mosin, stock sets are not easy to find or cheap, but they do turn up on eBay or gunbroker, harder to find are the handguards. These Finn M91's have been bringing $275-$400+ on GB over the last year when the stock is not messed with, looks like the metal is OK on yours, you could bring this back. Welcome to the board

[Junk Yard Dog]

That is Tula arsenal, forgot to mention that.

[7x57]

Not to forget the Austro-Hungarian "AZF" marking on the receiver. "AZF" stands for "Artilleriezeugfabrik", which can be translated as "Artillery Arsenal", in Vienna. So your rifle has been captured by the Austro-Hungarians during WW I. Also the "Z" on the barrel shank is of Austro-Hungarian origin - but at the moment I can't remember its meaning.

[willyj73]

As people stated, the Tula has Austrio-Hungary and Finn marks. I believe that either a Finnish or Russian M91 stock would work with the rifle (due to the Finn mark). As far as serial numbers matching, it would be difficult to find a Mosin from 1895 that has matching numbers. The parts on these rifles were usually replaced during their lifetime. The Finns usually scrubbed the old serial numbers from the bolts, and added a serial number that matched the number from the barrel shank--hence, Finn marked rifles usually have "matching" bolts. As far as the 91/30, I may be wrong on this one, as I don't know all of the details of the refurb process--I believe the old serial numbers were struck through or scrubbed, and new numbers were added that matched the serial number on the barrel shank. I don't know when the numbers were scrubbed vs. when they were struck through.

To make the Tula "correct", you would need a stock, and barrel bands. You may also need barrel band retaining screws (I generally have them on my rifles, so I don't know if the bands stay in place without them). The tabs on the hand guard add a little more material for the barrel bands, so you might be able to forego the screws if you have a handguard.

[bunkysdad]

You found a very nice Finnish M91, too bad the stock is missing. This is much better however than finding one that the stock was modified on by cutting. These plastic stocks are fine for shooting. Ask the seller if he has the stock? You might get lucky. A complete stock could get expensive

[entropy]

Don't despair, jurob, that's excatly the state I found my 1916 Sestroryetsk arsenal M91 in! I eventually found a nice stock on GunBroker, and a bayonet later on. It was labelled as an M44 at the shop, and price accordingly. (this was 7-8 years ago.)
When I read the barrel shank, I couldn't pay them fast enough! Now I just need to pay Rongo so I can 'reacquire' it.

Good buys on your first Mosins, jurob!

[jurob]

Thanks so much for there help!

Excuse my world history ignorance.....
AZF means it was captured by the Austro-Hungarians, where do the Finns come in (I assuming Finland which was part of Russia at one time) and what markings indicate Finns?

Also a little clarification on a stock. eBay lists stocks for sale that appear complete, but has no mention or year, can I use any 91/30 stock? As an example, my 43, could I transfer my bolt, barrel,receiver, etc.. To it?

Both o

[jurob]

Darn iPad....
Both of my magazines have 2 serial numbers with 1 crossed out, why is that?

Love the history on these old guns. My 1895 is in amazing shape and is the reason why I would like it to look like it came from the factory.

The individual I bought it from found it at a yard sale with the aftermarket stock and does not have any of the parts or know the history. I have not shot it yet, but he claims its a great shooter and feels much better than the 43 because of the stock.

[Deadheadmatt]

How much did you get them for (if you don't mind me asking)?

Matt

[7x57]

Thanks so much for there help!

...
AZF means it was captured by the Austro-Hungarians, where do the Finns come in (I assuming Finland which was part of Russia at one time) and what markings indicate Finns?
....

After becoming an independent nation in the closing days of WW I, the Finns had to re-equip their army. They had decided to standardize on the Mosin-Nagant rifle and thus tried to buy as many of these rifles as possible from a lot of sources all over Europe. About 80,000 captured M.91 rifles had already been delivered by the Germans in 1918, when they helped the Finns to become independent - not unlikely that also some rifles captured by Austria-Hungary were amongst them. Another batch of 39,900 rifles were bought in Italy in 1926 - these were rifles originally captured by the Austro-Hungarians and later captured by or surrendered to the Italians. About 15,200 rifles came from Albania and Romania in 1928. And there were numerous more purchases (totalling 118,000 rifles) from Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria between 1928 and 1941. Also not unlikely that some captured by Austria-Hungary were among them.

The "boxed SA" on the left side of the barrel shank is the property mark of the Finnish Army ("Suomen Armija"). The "D" stamping on top of the barrel shank is also Finnish - it denotes that this rifle has been adapted for firing the (slightly thicker) Russian "D" round.

[jurob]

Thanks 7X57!

I paid 250 with approximately 130 rounds.

[qz2026]

That is a very nice old Finn M-91 with beautiful stampings. Lucky for you the person who restocked this rifle did not cut it down. It would be well worth your while, assuming you paid $250 for the pair, to keep your eyes out for a Russian or Finn stock. You'll see them from time to time on the forums and on eBay. As JYD said, these stocks don't come cheap and you are not likely to find a Finn stock. Check with the seller to see if he still has the original stock and butt plate. Sometimes you can find a rusty old M-91 with a decent stock for not much money. Keep your eyes out for that too. I suspect you could get the entire beater rifle for less than a stock. And, hopefully, you would get the barrel bands and handguard.

[steelbuttplate]

Don't buy a 91/30 stock set for the' 95, it would be screwy. Take the '95 out of it's plastic and put it in the other to see. The bolt, mag. trigger should interchange........SBP

[lobowolf761]

The 91 will work in a 91/30 stock
I know mine does but I put it back in its original stock. I just tried it out after doing a bit of historical research on the moisins. Mine was mfg in 1898.

there is nothing better than the smell of burnt powder in the morning. Except of course the smell of fresh coffee.

[lobowolf761]

I'm glad I read this thread. I took another good at my m1891 and see that it is Finn. No other capture marks that I can see.

there is nothing better than the smell of burnt powder in the morning. Except of course the smell of fresh coffee.

[jurob]

Post pics, I would love to see it

[neal45]

While your M91 would work in a 91/30 stock, it would look really funny - and be completely incorrect. If you are patient, you will eventually see a M91 stock for sale on eBay or Gunbroker, but you are likely to have to pay as much for it as you did for the gun. I've seen a few but prices started at $150 two years ago and I don't know what they would bring now. Barrel bands for a M91 will run $40 - $80 range and a handguard will run $60 - $100. I have not looked lately but those price are a year or two old, when I was actively watching prices.

It costs a lot to bring a M91 up to standards but it is quite a beauty of a rifle that you have and would be worth it.

[zeebill]

Pop on the Liberty Tree banner at the top of this forum and you will find the high end for most of the parts that you are looking for. Stocks and hand guards are not labeled outwardly as far a year they were made for. The 01/30 rifle you have is basically a parts rifle made from piles of different parts then renumbered to match. Sometimes they scrubbed the old numbers and sometimes they just lined them out and put the matching numbers on the parts. Your M91 in the ABS stock is about a $150 rifle at the best and with what parts you are missing would require about $250 in parts to make it worth about $350 to $450 in value if it went together nicely. Even then a good collector would see things that told him it was a parts rifle and not pay that much. Even a hint of things not being original would maybe turn them away from the rifle for something else.

You have some tough choices to make as this would be a labor of love you might never get your money back out of and have to take a loss. It use to be years ago you could save them with the missing parts but the sources who have them these days make far too much on what they sell things for and many people know no better and pay the prices they want. Greed unfortunately has taken much of the fun out of collecting and newbies just starting out pay the high prices and make it worse all the time. I have no real answers but I am dang sure not paying some of todays asked prices. The answer for a new collector is have way too deep pockets I guess? Good Luck! Bill

[lobowolf761]

Post pics, I would love to see it

I'll try to. I'm not sure how to post pics on here. Just have my cell phone to take pics with.

there is nothing better than the smell of burnt powder in the morning. Except of course the smell of fresh coffee.