Morral Dilemma ?????

[Miller Tyme]

Thought I would post this 2 part question on a couple of collecting forums in part to receive other viewpoints, and to help me solve a small moral issue. I consider myself as somewhat of a purist, but there are somethings that fire up the purists that don't get me all worked up ( rescoping a Finn captured sniper for example).




I put it to you , the Mosin Collecting community to see what you would do.

If you owned a mismatched Mosin rifle, and suddenly you had the chance to swap out the S/N'ed parts with the correctly S/N'ed parts that your rifle came from the factory with would you be inclined to do it?



I will add to this with question #2 a little bit latter

[daveshady]

Odds of finding the parts from 1st time around
Got to be SLIM!! and not be fakes.

Like winnin lotto....

[Lotema]

If I could be certain that they were the real deal authentic parts then I would certainly be inclined to at least acquire the pieces. If I ever went to resell, I would include the original parts I had with the rifle though.

[Miller Tyme]

Odds of finding the parts from 1st time around
Got to be SLIM!! and not be fakes.

Like winnin lotto....

Not fakes, and 100 % original

[Miller Tyme]

The second part of the question is would it make a difference if the rifle in question was a very limited production Mosin, and not only does it have some the S/N'ed parts to your rifle, but your rifle has some of the s/n parts to it !

[Junk Yard Dog]

I never gave a damn if the parts didn't match , that's how the rifle was when last in service. If it was good enough for the soldier who was setting out to commit multiple homicides with it then is damn sure is good enough for me. Anal retentive, that's the term I was searching for, what I always thought of the types obsessed with every part of their piece of history being "correct" and spending untold time and money to get it that way. As if they were there in the arsenal way back when to see exactly how every rifle was put together, this goes triple for the M1 Garand parts matching fanatics, most of what they think is "correct" on their rifles is likely wishful thinking bullshit. our Garands were built with whatever parts happened to be at hand at the time because we had perfect parts interchangeability . It didn't matter if someone found a crate of whatever that was overlooked from six months ago, they used it. During wartime every country's arsenals are operating the same way, getting the rifles out the door is what's important, not making sure every part is 100% correct for the current design. I like to remind anyone complaining or disappointed that their piece of history isn't 100% matching whatever, you could be reading this board and looking at all the pictures from inside some country that blocks it's citizens from owning firearms, or permits them only if they are demilitarized. Things can always be worse.

[Miller Tyme]

I never gave a damn if the parts didn't match , that's how the rifle was when last in service. If it was good enough for the soldier who was setting out to commit multiple homicides with it then is damn sure is good enough for me. Anal retentive, that's the term I was searching for, what I always thought of the types obsessed with every part of their piece of history being "correct" and spending untold time and money to get it that way. As if they were there in the arsenal way back when to see exactly how every rifle was put together, this goes triple for the M1 Garand parts matching fanatics, most of what they think is "correct" on their rifles is likely wishful thinking bullshit. our Garands were built with whatever parts happened to be at hand at the time because we had perfect parts interchangeability . It didn't matter if someone found a crate of whatever that was overlooked from six months ago, they used it. During wartime every country's arsenals are operating the same way, getting the rifles out the door is what's important, not making sure every part is 100% correct for the current design. I like to remind anyone complaining or disappointed that their piece of history isn't 100% matching whatever, you could be reading this board and looking at all the pictures from inside some country that blocks it's citizens from owning firearms, or permits them only if they are demilitarized. Things can always be worse.

Fair enough, except these rifles never saw any combat at all, and how the parts got swapped remains unclear at this point since these rifle never went through anything like a Soviet refurb program.
A large number of this model was completely reconfigured and reissued to internal security forces and they too never saw combat

[Junk Yard Dog]

When you need a part to fix a rifle that is going out into the field the easiest and fastest way to get it is "borrow" it off od a rifle that is in storage. You can always put it back later when the part you requisitioned gets there, and nobody is likely to care if the drawing number is off, or the arsenal stamp isn't matching. Most of these rifles ended their service with reserve troops who's budget was usually next to nothing, they kept weapons operational however they had to. They didn't care what we would think of it 60 years later.

[Miller Tyme]

Ok, now up until now everyone seems to be thinking this is your run of the mill Mosin,

well here is the rest of the story



Some 3-4 years ago I bought a VZ54 sniper from Dennis Kroh/ Empire Arms that was a mismatch with all 5 s/n'ed parts being from 2 different rifles, the barreled action and bolt being one s/n and the stock, mag cover, & trigger guard being another.

http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.c ... 48&t=12381



So imagine my surprise when 10 days ago I see a auction on Gunbroker for a scope less VZ54 with the s/n to the mismatched parts on my rifle and vise-versa. ( I rechecked the pics a dozen times to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks on me.)


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =490873363



Why these parts are swapped is anyone's guess since the VZ54 never received anything like a Soviet style refurbishment but finding them was pure luck and chance.

[zeebill]

General and simplifying rule is the way it came to me unless parts are broken or unsafe is the way it leaves here. You can add anything else you want but that is the way it is here and will be till the last breath I take. Rifles are broken or refuse to work safely then things may be changed a bit. Bill

[rayjd2]

Sure, what the hells it matter as long as you keep straight what's what? I wouldn't hunt the parts, but if they showed up at my door...

[racerguy00]

In this case I would have no problem swapping back. I cant imagine the parts being swapped between the two rifles like this in any way other than sloppy reassembly before export or after import. It doesnt make sense otherwise. It seems like the stocks with mag housings in place were simply switched by accident.

[capt14k]

I don't see the dilemma you buy the rifle you have 2 matching rifles the way they were made. If I could find a K98K bolt with serial 770 or 770n I would buy it and swap out my non matching bolt as long as it was the original bolt since all my other parts match. I hope rifle is still available for you to purchase. The odds are long one would ever have such luck.

[bunkysdad]

I would have a moral obligation to put the puzzles back right. [emoji14]

[Junk Yard Dog]

Putting an original part back on the rifle it came off of in the 100,000,000 to one chance it turns up is not a problem. Understand that finding a part that is identifiable to one particular rifle 20-60 years after it was removed is beyond just rare, it's damn near unheard of. This would be like buying two non matching serial number 91/30's years apart from different sources and discovering each has the parts serial numbered to the other. I would suspect in the case of this that the parts were swapped by the importer somehow, or maybe the rifles were shipped with parts loose for some reason and the dealers were too lazy to numbers match them back to the proper rifles, we saw this with the 91/30 bayonets. What bugs me is the guys who take a perfectly good rifle like a Garand and start trying to match part drawing numbers to the same month as the receiver. Uncle made parts in huge batches, sometimes they were made by outside contractors, the order of their use was not set so each rifle had parts made in the same week or month but rather whatever came to hand first was used first. Thinking that having all the drawing numbers on a rifle match the same month and manufacturer always struck me as bullshit and unnecessary altering of a piece of history.

I think you are safe enough with this particular parts swap, but document everything. Not because the next owner will care that you located the rifles original parts, but because of the extreme rarity of such an event happening.

[tjtM38]

I don't see a moral dilemma. Most of these rifles have swapped hands, had broken parts along the way, had parts replaced, been refurbished, re-barreled rebuilt and ended up with a mixmaster of parts from many different sources. M1 Garands are probably the best example. CMP rebuilt a bunch and then sold them to the shooting public. We love them, yet none of them are probably original.

I think the only kinds of pieces that are really important to keep all original are the true antiques and extremely valuable collectors pieces, no matter what the condition. Examples would be things like the 1873 Colt Single Action Army, Trapdoor Springfield, 1861 Springfield Musket, and the list goes on and on. Certainly the effort to keep it all original is admirable. I guess that is what we are all about here, but the effort falls short many times because of things that have happened to the rifles in their history.

[entropy]

In this case, yes, it makes sense. It serendipitously dropped into your lap, and the odds are so astronomical that you almost have to......

[bunkysdad]

I must Google "serendipitously" when I get a chance.

[rayjd2]

"Lucky chance" bunkysdad.

[Rongo]

I must Google "serendipitously" when I get a chance.

I'll translate; There's no chance in hell this scenario could happen. Lies & F@(%!NG Bullshit. At least that would be the case for me.

MT on the other hand has found a fortuitous way to fall in a pile of manure & come out smelling like a rose by finding the only acceptable scenario of swapping a correct part in our collecting venue. AbsaF@(%!nglutely amazing.

On a side note, If he were wise he wouldn't waste any more money on the lottery... MT wasted all his good luck by finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow & it's in his gunroom. Is Tyme an Irish name???