The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =417236001

Not sure if many spotted this one but feel free to discuss. I can't comment on the authenticity of the "papers"

I have numerous issues with this.

The veteran's letter was not posted with the listing, but let's assume that it tells a story related to the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir.

The capture paperwork is dated 5 Oct 51. The listing refers to a hospital at Chosin. There was no town called "Chosin." The Changjin Reservoir (or Chosin Reservoir) was in far northern Korea. The Battle of the Chosin Reservoir took place a full year before the paperwork. By October 1951, UN forces had been driven almost entirely out of North Korea.

If you have any familiarity with that battle, someone bringing back an enemy rifle seems highly unlikely. The First Marine Division was lucky to avoid annihilation. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it was all they could do to get out of there alive let alone cart souvenirs. They were blowing up/burning/abandoning their own equipment to make space in the vehicles to get their wounded out.

So the story as told in the listing lacks credibility.

I find the capture paperwork suspicious. The rifle purportedly came out of Korea, but the document giving permission to retain the rifle as a war trophy originates in . . . San Francisco? But the stamp is from Far East Command (based in Japan). The authorizing signature is obscured by a big "Commander in Chief" stamp with the signature line underwritten with "CO's signature." But the stamp is not from the combat command (1st Marine Division). Within my admittedly limited experience, trophy documents don't require a CinC stamp, and even that stamp is suspiciously Spartan.

Maybe someone can explain all this away, but the fact that so much has to be explained raises multiple red flags with me.

I smell the smelly smell of something that smells like bullshit.

Anyone else notice that certificate and provisions are both misspelled?

Problem with this sort of paperwork is that it is fairly simple to forge, no embossed seals, no multiple colors, this looks like a typewritten statement, not even a filled in form.. I have known many Korean war vets, they all brought home something, not one remembered ever getting any paperwork for an enemy weapon, US stuff they sneaked back. The rifle looks SCW.

Yeah, I call BS. Most guys didn't even file for the papers. I have seen plenty of docs from the era and this doesnt look authentic.

On the form....the 5's in the date are very distinctive. They don't match the 5 in the serial number of the rifle. Also why printed lasted name and cursive first name?

I'm no expert at these "papers" but my main issue was, other then the obvious spelling errors, the fact the paper appears to be "typed to order"...as in made on a typewritter....yet it was typed up horribly crooked and without any of the soldier or rifle info.

Seems if somebody had to type up the certificate on the spot they would correct the off-squared paper as soon as they noticed it and they would already had the soldiers and rifles' information to enter so no need for handwritting that in. It's not like it's scanned copy where somebody place the original in the copier crooked and then ran off million copies.

pgaplayerless wrote:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =417236001

Not sure if many spotted this one but feel free to discuss. I can't comment on the authenticity of the "papers"

I just don't understand why you would post a topic like this gunbroker auction for $1500.00 on almost your 1st post sounds kinda fishy to me

You state you have lost you posting privi's on the other board.

I don't know the other board you are talking about,I am not a member of any other boards.

Why did you lose you ability to post on the other board?

Tennessee_Mosin wrote:

pgaplayerless wrote:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =417236001

Not sure if many spotted this one but feel free to discuss. I can't comment on the authenticity of the "papers"

I just don't understand why you would post a topic like this gunbroker auction for $1500.00 on almost your 1st post sounds kinda fishy to me

You state you have lost you posting privi's on the other board.

I don't know the other board you are talking about,I am not a member of any other boards.

Why did you lose you ability to post on the other board?

I guess I don't see what's fishy about it? I'm no way related to the auction just had it on the watch list. My username is the same on gunbroker as everywhere else.

As for the other forum I was on the owner's shitlist ever since I made a "great deal" thread on some surplus 7.62x54r ammo from SPG that turned into bonanza of buying and 6 page thread. Thread was made per forum rules of that time but it still made the owners upset.

Welcome to the wonderful world of antiques, there is more bullshit in this world than even politics. Things are faked, humped, made to look older or newer depending on demand. Watch that UK TV show Lovejoy to get a bit of a picture of the things that are done with antiques in order to make money. I know how to age documents, fabrics, and such with the most simple means, my 1935 vintage manual typewriter would type that up with no problems. Aging wood isn't that hard either when you know the tricks. If it commands real money then it will be faked by someone. Somebody lucked out here, $1500 for what I suspect is a $250 SCW rifle? Not a bad payday for someone. For this sort of rifle I need the veteran to be standing before me telling the story of it's capture, showing a 1951 Photograph of a younger version of himself holding the rifle in some military setting, and it would greatly help if I had known the man 30-40 years. Without that, and just this bit of paper that a 6th grader could fake it's just another 91/30. I have undocumented bringhomes in my collection, I could give a shit if the next owner believes the story or not as I will be dead, I am never parting with these rifles while I live. I bought these rifles directly from the men who brought them home, or their immediate family's, all of whom had been known to me many years. Large amounts of cash were not involved in any of these purchases, the former owners known to me well enough to say the rifles simply changed hands in the family. Outside of that I would consider a rifle with a story and weak paperwork to be just another rifle. I never understood the paying of big money for papered bringhomes . In almost every case the rifle is sold by a dealer, or other party not associated with the name on the bringhome papers. If you can't put a face and a voice to that name then why bother spending well over what the same rifle without a paper would bring? My 1913 RIA US M1903 is a $1500 or more rifle as it is, I can still picture Leo handling the rifle during the transaction, hear his voice as he described a bit to me about his service in France 1918. For that alone I would not part with this rifle if you walked in here with $15,000. That's history, real history, not a unknown name on some bit of paper that will leave you speculating how and when he got the rifle. ( in Leo's case he was issued it) I probably have 15-20 rifles that I have bought of Vet's over the years, Arisakas, Mosins, M1 Carbines, M1903's and 1917's, Lebel, and so on, I think only two or three came with papers, the rest came with a handshake from real GI Joes, and a I will take care of it ,thank you for your service Sir.

pgaplayerless wrote:

Tennessee_Mosin wrote:

pgaplayerless wrote:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =417236001

Not sure if many spotted this one but feel free to discuss. I can't comment on the authenticity of the "papers"

I just don't understand why you would post a topic like this gunbroker auction for $1500.00 on almost your 1st post sounds kinda fishy to me

You state you have lost you posting privi's on the other board.

I don't know the other board you are talking about,I am not a member of any other boards.

Why did you lose you ability to post on the other board?

I guess I don't see what's fishy about it? I'm no way related to the auction just had it on the watch list. My username is the same on gunbroker as everywhere else.

As for the other forum I was on the owner's shitlist ever since I made a "great deal" thread on some surplus 7.62x54r ammo from SPG that turned into bonanza of buying and 6 page thread. Thread was made per forum rules of that time but it still made the owners upset.

Sounds like not RMNF business, whatever it was see that it doesn't happen here and all is good.

Thanks for setting me straight.I deserved that.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Problem with this sort of paperwork is that it is fairly simple to forge, no embossed seals, no multiple colors, this looks like a typewritten statement, not even a filled in form.. I have known many Korean war vets, they all brought home something, not one remembered ever getting any paperwork for an enemy weapon, US stuff they sneaked back. The rifle looks SCW.

Honestly, I wish you guys would stop calling everything Soviet with a pre-WW2 date that's not import marked SCW, it's just based purely in speculation for a lot of it and totally ignores all of the other possible sources. Rifles are what they are, you don't have to arbitrarily fit them into little categories unless there's good evidence. The stock on the rifle definitely isn't SCW at least as it's a late-post WW2 M91/30 stock.

For rifles like this, ALWAYS buy the rifle, not the story.

Very interesting!!!

shmlnaaa wrote:

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Problem with this sort of paperwork is that it is fairly simple to forge, no embossed seals, no multiple colors, this looks like a typewritten statement, not even a filled in form.. I have known many Korean war vets, they all brought home something, not one remembered ever getting any paperwork for an enemy weapon, US stuff they sneaked back. The rifle looks SCW.

Honestly, I wish you guys would stop calling everything Soviet with a pre-WW2 date that's not import marked SCW, it's just based purely in speculation for a lot of it and totally ignores all of the other possible sources. Rifles are what they are, you don't have to arbitrarily fit them into little categories unless there's good evidence. The stock on the rifle definitely isn't SCW at least as it's a late-post WW2 M91/30 stock.

For rifles like this, ALWAYS buy the rifle, not the story.

I said looked, not was, I didn't have time to list every possibility.

Tennessee_Mosin wrote:Thanks for setting me straight.I deserved that.

That wasn't directed at you, just reminding the OP that his problems with Vic are not my boards problem unless whatever it was happens here. Any long explanations of why I ain't guilty or whatever will be met with a long explanation of my back troubles, Chucks hip, Russells issues with slam eating Spam, and so on, and on.

Junk Yard Dog wrote:

shmlnaaa wrote:

Junk Yard Dog wrote:Problem with this sort of paperwork is that it is fairly simple to forge, no embossed seals, no multiple colors, this looks like a typewritten statement, not even a filled in form.. I have known many Korean war vets, they all brought home something, not one remembered ever getting any paperwork for an enemy weapon, US stuff they sneaked back. The rifle looks SCW.

Honestly, I wish you guys would stop calling everything Soviet with a pre-WW2 date that's not import marked SCW, it's just based purely in speculation for a lot of it and totally ignores all of the other possible sources. Rifles are what they are, you don't have to arbitrarily fit them into little categories unless there's good evidence. The stock on the rifle definitely isn't SCW at least as it's a late-post WW2 M91/30 stock.

For rifles like this, ALWAYS buy the rifle, not the story.

I said looked, not was, I didn't have time to list every possibility.

Well, it's wearing a post-war-type stock. SCW doesn't encompass everything and you don't have to list everything. It's better to just call rifles what they are (a mismatched, non-import marked M91/30 in this case) than something that it may not be at all. That's pretty much my point.

pgaplayerless wrote:

Tennessee_Mosin wrote:

pgaplayerless wrote:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =417236001

Not sure if many spotted this one but feel free to discuss. I can't comment on the authenticity of the "papers"

I just don't understand why you would post a topic like this gunbroker auction for $1500.00 on almost your 1st post sounds kinda fishy to me

You state you have lost you posting privi's on the other board.

I don't know the other board you are talking about,I am not a member of any other boards.

Why did you lose you ability to post on the other board?

I guess I don't see what's fishy about it? I'm no way related to the auction just had it on the watch list. My username is the same on gunbroker as everywhere else.

As for the other forum I was on the owner's shitlist ever since I made a "great deal" thread on some surplus 7.62x54r ammo from SPG that turned into bonanza of buying and 6 page thread. Thread was made per forum rules of that time but it still made the owners upset.

Welcome PGA. I actually think your sense of humor is more suited to this board. I don't post over there often, but I've read and laughed at every controversy you started there.

Hey I quit slam eating Spam some time ago! I remember it well too. A whole can of Spam at lunch cold, not fried, and even made couple sandwiches with the first half. Then all of a sudden I didn't feel so good! :(:(:(:P