The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Note to all collectors: While on vacation, ALWAYS take the time to scour the remote gunshops of the region.

;)

Found this oddity in a small shop near the White Mountains of New Hampshire. It's a Winchester Model 1917 that appears to be extremely well traveled. While likely being issued to US troops in WWI, it was subsequently refurbished at the Augusta Arsenal. From there, its path took a strange turn.




The gun exhibits much scrubbing of marks, and some new marks to take their place. First, nearly the entire receiver ring has been ground, leaving only the letters M and W, which identify it as a Winchester. An electropenciled serial number was then applied to the left side of the receiver - most likely from the importer.






Next, the barrel date and flaming bomb were scrubbed, and Century Arms placed their import and caliber stamps in the area.






Now, it gets interesting. While the right side buttstock brand is nearly completely obliterated with a rasp, the left side still exhibits the remains of a Chinese brand that was burned into the wood. And, overlaying the Chinese brand, there are the Arabic painted rack number (54) and an unknown (at this time) script. Cool. Hardly ever seen on a US issued firearm.










The bolt handle also received a number stamp, which is typical of the limited number of US rifles which did end up in China. And the floorplate also has a scrubbed section, which may have contained another serial number stamp and/or US or Chinese identification stamps.






It is unsure whether the US marks would have been scrubbed in China, or the Middle East. Neither region held much regard for America. And the rifle's exact journey would be tough to establish with certainty. But the US did supply the Nationalist Chinese forces with small arms in the 1940's. First, to aid against Japan, and later in the decade, to resist the PLA.

And then from China, it made its way to the Middle East. My best guess is Egypt, only because Century Arms imported a batch of Arabic marked guns in the early 1990's, presumably from Israeli captures of Egyptian arms from 1967 to 1973. This gun was purchased by the gunshop owner directly from the Century Arms warehouse in 1992, and was the only Model 1917 in the batch of imports.

All speculation, of course, but the theory of the rifle's history is following the logic of only a few limited possibilities. Other scenarios could be possible, for sure. As of today, and I've done a lot of searches for other specimens, this is the only Model 1917 that I can find with evidence of both Chinese and Arabic roots. A very, very unusual example. Thanks for looking.

Nice and interesting rifle thanks for sharing and a great writeup.You got some serious tracking skills

Nice, a lend lease rifle sent to China during WW2, captured by the communists in 1948, scrubbed of it's US markings and supplied to one of the Arab countries with commie leanings probably in the 1950's or 60's.

Very cool survivor there. She's been through A lot

Nice

Interesting piece.

Amazing it found it's way home, intersting history on that one, nice find

Many thanks, all.

Still working on a translation of the Arabic script. There has been some feedback from other forums, and hoping to narrow it down soon.

Regardless, it is a very unique specimen. The more that I search for similar examples, the more that I am realizing that precious few of these Chinese or Arabic marked guns may be found in the US today.

I recall a great many scrubbed 1917's being sold at Numrich back in the 90's, but I don't remember Arabic script on them. They had a big double rack full of them, a friend bough two and I looked both over carefully, no markings Chinese or Arabic. The Boys at Numrich told us the lot had been imported from China.

I may know someone who can translate it. I'll see what I can find out.

The top two Chinese characters are (吉林) Ji Lin. It is a province at northeastern part of China, borders North Korea. Can not make out the bottom Chinese character. looks like local Militia stamp on PRC

I was told it was an old Arabic word mostly used in North African Arabic countries like Egypt or Morocco that doesn't have a direct English translation. In essence it refers to someone who is a holistic caregiver who prescribes herbs and homemade medicines to people. It's not a word used in countries like Iraq or Iran.

Many thanks, Tom. I am getting very similar feedback from other forums.

from Artemus

Two of my Saudi guys say its a name, the part to the right also means "spice dealer", ttaran, but this is common when names evolve from places or avocations. Like Shoemaker or Carpenter in English. It would help to know the country or region the writing was made in for idiom and slang.

from Homer2

Etar means Perfumist or Drugist, but the last two letters don't seem to mean anything that I can make out. It pops up a lot on Saudi stuff and some Egypt sites as some sort of Market or Bazaar thing. But it translates as something like 'Ttaran', and Google translate won't do anything else with it. Perhaps in Egypt it is a location or neighborhood, or else it is a district.

My wife said it is probably a tribe, which may in fact be somewhat better than a location. With lots of references to Jeddah, it may have been used by Bedouins, or maybe trading people because of the above. Could be the name of the person who was assigned that rifle in Egypt or Saudi.

I'm not familiar with the details of the locations of Chinese Nationalist forces during their civil war. Would the stamp indicating the NE province have been added by the Nationalists or the PLA after it's capture? I know a lot of captured American equipment was used by the Chinese army in the beginning stages of their attack in the Korean War, this rifle could quite possibly be a Korean war veteran, as well as WW1, WW2, Chinese Civil War, and a mid-east conflict apparently. Amazing.

Most of PLA weapon in Chinese civil war was captured from Nationalist government troop. National government sometime will add "國軍" on imported firearm. 國軍 (Guo jun) = national army. Only Chinese communist government setup a militia system (start around 1960s) Local militia will add these stamp on firearm for security reason.

In 1947, the US sent 152,000 Model 1903 and 1917 rifles to the Nationalist Chinese forces in a Lend-lease program. Some of these guns have made it back to the US directly from China, and some had shortened barrels and/or buttstocks. The few examples of these guns that have been recorded do not seem to exhibit the US Property stamp, like the European and NATO examples.

Judging only from the CAI import mark, and the relative time frame of its reappearance in the States (early 1990's), the best reasoning really is that the gun was sent to Egypt under the Chinese Contract of the mid to late 1960's. Many Chinese Contract guns were captured by Israel from 1967-1973, and Century Arms did get their hands on the spoils.

Interesting history. Happy to help.

yiping wrote:The top two Chinese characters are (吉林) Ji Lin. It is a province at northeastern part of China, borders North Korea. Can not make out the bottom Chinese character. looks like local Militia stamp on PRC

Many thanks. Most definitely Ji Lin. It's very interesting that this province is close in proximity to North Korea. This may place the gun in China a few years earlier than I had thought. In 1941, approximately 50,000 M1917's were requisitioned by the Chinese to counter the Japanese occupancy.

Ji Lin was already under Japanese occupation since 1933. In 1941 almost half of China was in Japans hand. All U.S. supplied firearms were equipped to The New First army (Chinese army in India) to protect China's supply line.
U.S. firearms did not really show up in the China battle front until 1945, just before the war ended. Most U.S. firearms were used in the civil war (1946~1949) by both sides.