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There's no way to adapt 7.62x51 NATO ammo to a 7.62x54R Mosin Nagant without basically remaking the rifle. As stated above case differences as well as projectile differences would require major modifications to the rifle. The 7.62x51 NATO is the military version adopted in about 1952 of the commercial .308 cal round. They are mostly interchangable according to the SAAMI interchangable ammo charts but are slightly different in case dimensions and are not always interchangable. Depends on the application. That said the 7.62x54R is a totally different cartridge. Different length 54mm as apposed to 51mm as well as the 54R being rimmed and tappered compared to the 51mm being non tapered and rimless. Even slight differences of thousands of inches between cartridges can preclude simliar cartridges from being interchangable like the .223 and 5.56x45 NATO. You can use both in a rifle chambered for the NATO round but only the .223 in the commercially chambered rifle.
Below is what they look like side by side. In the picture below from left to right is .223, 7.62x54R (60/85 Lugansk surplus), 7.62x51 NATO (Winchester Q3130), 8mm (Yugo 1953 surplus), 8mm (Remington Core-Lokt), 30.06 (both Winchester commercial ammo, fired and unfired)
No intention of offending the original OP, but everytime I see questions like this, I have to say Please Read Some Books. Many misconceptions and half truths and out right lies abound reguarding ammunition caliber interchangeability. Start reading some reloading manuals, Handloader or Rifle magazine, Gun Digest, Shooters Bible, etc. etc. Knowledge is power and should be verified through more then one source if possible.
Semper Fi, Rob
My Mosin-Nagant arsenal.........is growing again
1938 Tula
1943 Izhevsk M91/30 PU Sniper
Sgt. Rob wrote:No intention of offending the original OP, but everytime I see questions like this, I have to say Please Read Some Books. Many misconceptions and half truths and out right lies abound reguarding ammunition caliber interchangeability. Start reading some reloading manuals, Handloader or Rifle magazine, Gun Digest, Shooters Bible, etc. etc. Knowledge is power and should be verified through more then one source if possible.
Semper Fi, Rob
No offense taken. I agree 100%. I'm still pretty new into shooting and even newer into mosins so I'm pretty uniformed.
A bunch of numbers and a few words jumbled together is a caliber, persay. Just because some of the numbers are the same does not mean they are interchangeable. A caliber is the dimensions of the case usually: shoulder, bottle neck or straight, there are always differences. The chamber is made to these specifications and will only work with the proper bullet case combo. Now there are alot of bores that are the same size. So 7.62x54R is a caliber of rifle that shoots a 7.62 bullet with a case that is 54mm long and rimmed. 7.62 in this case is .311or.312.
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
target wrote:Keeping 7.62x51 out of a rifle chambered in 7.62x54R is just a good way to live longer.
The 7.62x51mm is both thinner and shorter than the 7.62x54r, I haven't tried it but the round would likely just drop into the chamber past any point were the firing pin would hit it unless you pointed the rifle straight up. Even then it wouldn't be held by the extractor to the boltface and would just bounce off the pin. If it did go off however things would get messy.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
I've read a few stories of guys running 7.62x51 through Mosins, they go off but they don't extract and the cases are horribly exapnded, also seen a guy run .308 through a 30-06... they looked like pistol cartridges when they were extracted.
Put the right bullets in your guns, this isn't a SHTF scenario nor is one on the horizon, instead of wondering what could work stock up on what does.
Fortunately at four times the cost of surplus 7.62x54r I don't think there will be a great demand for 7.62x51mm in Mosins.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
I always wonder why people get hurt till I see posts about ammo being similar this way and that and then I have nightmares for about a week as a result. Bill
You could buy something that shoots .308. The Ishapore #1 mark3 were made to shoot the Nato round. Do some reading, I am thinking of buying one and they are fine with surplus .308, I have read you shouldn't use commercial .308. By the way, they are not conversions, they were made with .308 barrels after the British left sometime in the 1960's.
polymerase2 wrote:You could buy something that shoots .308. The Ishapore #1 mark3 were made to shoot the Nato round. Do some reading, I am thinking of buying one and they are fine with surplus .308, I have read you shouldn't use commercial .308. By the way, they are not conversions, they were made with .308 barrels after the British left sometime in the 1960's.
The Indian 1A, and 2A 7.62mm Enfields are based off of the old No1 MKIII* SMLE .303 rifles, however the SMLE No1 action is not strong enough to take 7.62x51mm by itself. The Indians played around with the heat treatment and metallurgy of the receivers and even with that they are only just strong enough to handle the 7.62mm Nato round. This was a desperation move by the Indians in the 1960's when they faced problems with Pakistan and China, couldn't produce FAL's fast enough and had all the old British machinery in place to produce the N01 MKIII. If they had been at peace with the world they never would have made this rifle. The commercial .308 loads are slightly hotter than the NATO 7.62x51mm, a few rounds now and then will probably not hurt it, but a steady diet will. This is a rifle that should be headspace checked frequently even when using the Nato rounds. The rifles are absolutely not conversions from old .303 rifles, the .303 receivers will not handle the 7.62mm for long, they made the decision to go with the 7.62mm round to simplify ammo supply as the FAL's they were making used the Nato load.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
target wrote:I've read a few stories of guys running 7.62x51 through Mosins, they go off but they don't extract and the cases are horribly exapnded, also seen a guy run .308 through a 30-06... they looked like pistol cartridges when they were extracted.
Put the right bullets in your guns, this isn't a SHTF scenario nor is one on the horizon, instead of wondering what could work stock up on what does.
A gazillon years ago when I was first starting to shoot "smokeless" powder cartridge "guns" I bought a 1903 Springfield to go hunting "Bambi's Daddy" (Still have it Too) I was going hunting with a prospective FIL and BIL (Didn't work out with prospective SWMBO) At the gunshop, the new guy behind the counter asked what "Bullets" went in this "Old" army gun ( I didn't know either ) somebody said "Them .30's but not the .30-30's" and I ended up with 2 boxes of .308 instead of .30-06. When I went to sight it in Mr King said, "Boy..you'se an idjit and them clowns where you bought this rifle are bigger ones" He handed me a box of his stuff and it worked out well in the end (for the hunting trip anyway)
Damn, I'll bet that's going to leave a mark! Probably hurt too!
"I think Congressmen should wear uniforms,
you know, like NASCAR drivers, so we could
identify their corporate sponsors."
"When I die, I want to be facing my enemies surrounded by their dead bodies and piles of spent brass"
"Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Mark Twain
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Thanks for the info JYD. I have been toying with buying either the .308 Ishapore or keep looking for a GRI marked .303. I'll stick with the .303. I'll find a nice reasonable one eventually. A man has to have hope!
.303 Enfields were made in the millions during two world wars and in at least five countries I recall off the top of my head, they are around, and not that expensive unless it's something like a No5 carbine, you should be able to find a WW2 dated No4 in the $250-$300 range, sometimes less. WW1 date No1 MKIII* rifles run around $300-$350 unless they are beat to death. Only downside is you will have to reload for them as commercial ammo is as expensive as the 7.62x51mm, and surplus is getting rare.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Junk Yard Dog wrote:.303 Enfields were made in the millions during two world wars and in at least five countries I recall off the top of my head, they are around, and not that expensive unless it's something like a No5 carbine, you should be able to find a WW2 dated No4 in the $250-$300 range, sometimes less. WW1 date No1 MKIII* rifles run around $300-$350 unless they are beat to death. Only downside is you will have to reload for them as commercial ammo is as expensive as the 7.62x51mm, and surplus is getting rare.
and some commercial manufacturers use cases with to thin of a rim which cause very short case life even with neck sizing and even worse they use projectiles that are just much to small in diameter as a former collector of WW2 Lee's the average bore diameter seems to be .311-.311.5 commercial FMJ/BT seems to be .310-310.5 which may or may not be acceptable. Enfields tend to have their own personality and you have to work with each one individually. Handloaing for the Lee is always best and its one of the funner cartridges to experiment with. reloading is quickly loosing its cheap edge in most cases but 9 times out of 10 it is very beneficial for those who like to perfect a recipe for accuracy.
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." -Declaration of Independence
I used to shoot commercial ammo imported from communist Yugoslavia in my first Enfields years ago, these days it's called Privi, I worked all right from what I remember.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Theses rifles have sent many man to his death in Northern Ireland and the Falklands.
Last edited by Simo on Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." -Declaration of Independence
Yea, a hit would just about cover the cost of one of them, problem is finding one to buy.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Junk Yard Dog wrote:Yea, a hit would just about cover the cost of one of them, problem is finding one to buy.
They are so very expensive and rare that regardless of what collectors say, I would be more than willing to sacrifice a No.4 to build one. No, it would not be original or have even a similar value but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get that gem, even if you have to create it
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." -Declaration of Independence
Bill
