C&R License

[tjtM38]

I think sales to individuals have always been a gray area. It really depends on state law as to what you can legally do. I think the problem with any transfer between individuals is the first question you sign on the Federal Firearms 4473 form that asks:

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.

The question for me in state that I live in is what is the buyer's responsibility when you eventually do sell a gun in which the purchase has been recorded under your name on this forrm? When I lived in Pennsylvania, all transfers between individuals had to take place at the local Sheriff's office using their transfer form. That protected you because the Sheriff normally did a background check on the individual you were selling the gun to. Here in MS that is not the case. Nevertheless, if I transferred a firearm that I had legally purchased and the gun was used to commit a felony or, worse yet, transferred outside the state to some place like LA or NYC, what could happen to me? It has always been a gray area to me. How long am I obligated to comply with the original intent of that first question on the ATF Form 4473? A month? Six months?

I can see why the Feds would get nervous about someone purchasing 10 guns at a time. I think they would get more nervous about someone doing multiple purchases of ARs or AKs as opposed to old bolt action war relics. They probably assume the person is lying about "collecting" so many guns. That is what I hate about the whole system. The people working in that agency are not really to be trusted and they don't trust you or I to be responsible citizens; they assume we are all bad guys. Just look at "Fast and Furious" to get a sobering illustration of what I mean.

[Oramaac4572]

You can expect a home visit from a BATFE agent to explain the rules of the license and have you sign a paper stating that you understand the rules. This will add weeks of time to the license process and is required before they will issue the license. You ask them about things like " how many rifles is it OK to trade or sell out of the bound book and they will tell you it's a "gray" area. Meaning it's up to the auditing agents discretion, for some one is too many, others might be OK with 10, your ass is out in the wind on this important issue so I sold none out of my book just to be safe.

I know this is true. I told you guys about the last trip to my FFL to pick up 8 refurbed rifles and a BATFE agent was there. He was there by chance to inspect a MAC10 that might be full-auto and saw my rifles and asked the owner about them. He waited for me outside and asked me why I was buying all of them. I told him I collect them. Then he said he thought maybe I was buying them to sell. I told him I don't have a C&R so I'm not limited to what I purchase, sell or trade as far as I knew. Otherwise I wouldn't have been there transfering them through an FFL. We talked about the limits on C&R holders purchases and subsequent resale and he said that's a gray area.
I told him no I don't sell firearms I buy but I could legally if I choose. He agreed but told me even that's a gray area. They seem to have a lot of gray areas. This is by design. He told me I can sell any of the rifles I bought but if they want to scrutinize a sale someone makes they can. He gave me an example. He said if I sell a firearm to someone and I believe (believe mind you, not know) they might not be legal for some reason to own it and I sell it anyway I would have a problem. How do you prove that? It's kind of hard to prove I believed someone wasn't supposed to own a firearm. He was actually a nice guy and is a collector himself. He told me the reason he asked was he was it was unusual for someone to be buying so many refurbed rifles in a short period. I told him "Hey I love old rifles especially Garands and would have a bunch more if the CMP sold them without the associated membership requirement". Well that and the cost. Then he dug through his wallet and pulled out his Garand Collectors Association membership card. He said if you join them the CMP will sell you rifles. When I have money coming in again I'll do that.

Great post, thank you Weldon !!

[zeebill]

First off the ATF is typical of most whimsical unrealistic government branches that exist in this country today. They are self serving and help the public little or not at all. Look just briefly at the situation where they were allowing and maybe even helping sales to Mexican Drug Lords and our citizens were being shot down with these guns. The individual ATF agent can be knowledgeable or totally stupid about gun laws and the basic systems of weapons of today and yesterday. His or her call is final at the first encounter and never the final word legally after the chips fall. Getting those chips to fall can be costly and time consuming for the individual citizen and that is the catch point. The dam ATF probably keeps many lawyers in business today as many people are forced to sue this capricious and worthless government branch to toe the line with the real law not their version of it. Each agent has a seemingly endless version of the way they see things which for the most part is not legal and just makes them feel they have a job. To my way of thinking they like many other governmental organs serve little or no purpose other than to harass the normal honest citizens who have to tolerate them. Their "Grey Areas" exist in their minds individually and not legally when push comes to shove. They rush in and seize things at the drop of the hat and end up for the most part wasting their time and our money which pays them. About once every twenty years or so they do actually have the guts and knowledge to nail someone who deserves it and lots of time even their they fail to operate legally and lose the case in the end or are forced to settle quietly out of court.

So we all have to pleasantly tolerate them and try to do things around them as we see fit under the real laws and not their interpretations, which vary beyond belief. Logic with most ATF agents is a lost cause so keep that in mind. Some real stupid people give them free tables at gun shows and some of their calls at the shows have actually bit me years ago and took two real good dealers to straighten out the agent making the wrong call. I know a few agents who actually make sense at times but believe me they are few and far between. God help us and protect us from their general stupidity! Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

I don't trust any of the fu.... stupid idiots, the mess at Wako, that crapfest at Ruby Ridge, these and dozens of other incidents perpetrated against American citizens have caused me to totally lose respect for F troop. This agency is a fine example of the kind of shit that is keeping our taxes sky high as we support it's bloated bureaucracy.

[kermit]

i love this forum. ATF cashed my check for $30 fee,so maybe soon i will receive my C&R

[Darryl]

The problem with most of these agencies is, that they have gotten to political.

When it comes to firearms...........

There is very little consistency in the Department of Justice. It changes with each new President, and that is wrong. This has a terrible effect on the BATF also. Like most government agencies, there are some good people in them, but many seem to be idiots and don't know their job or the laws.

Politics is not allowed on the forums except in a very narrow focus with firearms. Most people here understand what is going on.


Dolk

[Chumlee Bumsnag]

I'm a little unclear on C&R's and FFL's. Are these required for only out of state transactions, or does it apply to all used firearm purchases?

[Oramaac4572]

I'm a little unclear on C&R's and FFL's. Are these required for only out of state transactions, or does it apply to all used firearm purchases?

If you purchase a firearm online, you are required to have it transferred to a FFL holder. A C&R is just for Curios and Relics, Mosin Nagants fall in the category. You would be able to purchase online and from distributors (at a lower cost) and have them shipped directly to your house.

[desdem12]

If you have a C&R class 03 FFL license (curio and relics), you can order guns that fall under the requirements off the net and have them shipped to your own house. If you do not have one, then you must ship to a FFL 01 who can then transfer said gun to you for a fee. The fee is anywhere from free to 75 or 100 bones at some places. If the gun does not meet the C&R requirements then you have to ship to a FFL01 for transfer anyway. Some pistols and most old milsurps fall into this catogorie.

[desdem12]

Not sure how your guys's PAL license works either. If you get a PAL can you have the gun shipped to you or is it shipped to a certain place where you take posession?

[BostonMike]

If I let my C&R expire, can I destroy my bound book? Or must I keep that?


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[desdem12]

As far as i know you can destroy it. If you decide to start again then you just have to get another book. The previous weapons would not have to go in it. You can keep the book, or hide it i would imagine though as they would have no jurisdiction over you if you have no current license.

[WeldonHunter]

I think sales to individuals have always been a gray area. It really depends on state law as to what you can legally do. I think the problem with any transfer between individuals is the first question you sign on the Federal Firearms 4473 form that asks:

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.

The question for me in state that I live in is what is the buyer's responsibility when you eventually do sell a gun in which the purchase has been recorded under your name on this forrm? When I lived in Pennsylvania, all transfers between individuals had to take place at the local Sheriff's office using their transfer form. That protected you because the Sheriff normally did a background check on the individual you were selling the gun to. Here in MS that is not the case. Nevertheless, if I transferred a firearm that I had legally purchased and the gun was used to commit a felony or, worse yet, transferred outside the state to some place like LA or NYC, what could happen to me? It has always been a gray area to me. How long am I obligated to comply with the original intent of that first question on the ATF Form 4473? A month? Six months?

I can see why the Feds would get nervous about someone purchasing 10 guns at a time. I think they would get more nervous about someone doing multiple purchases of ARs or AKs as opposed to old bolt action war relics. They probably assume the person is lying about "collecting" so many guns. That is what I hate about the whole system. The people working in that agency are not really to be trusted and they don't trust you or I to be responsible citizens; they assume we are all bad guys. Just look at "Fast and Furious" to get a sobering illustration of what I mean.

Oh !!! This brings up some exellent points that I thought about for a while. Being a collector I figured at some point I'd want to sell a rifle or two, maybe. It's hard to let any of them go. I still have every firearm I've ever aquired besides 2 new semi-auto Remington 22lrs I bought as a matched pair, one blued and one stainless steel. I just didn't see the need for them where I was at the time. I sold them to a local gunshop. Besides the 3 others that were stolen I still have them all so selling and the logistics of a sale are something I've always wondered about.
I asked the ATF agent about this during our conversation. He told me I don't need to register or record the sale with anybody in an official way. I told him being the causious person I am I was thinking the sale needed to be recorded in some way at a minimum with a bill of sale. I told him David (My FFL) doesn't do private transfers but I would have thought that private sales require it as well as between C&R and FFL holders. He said no it doesn't need to be done. Just record the buyers information and get them to sign it. I told him my concern would be if they were used in some illegal way like a robbery or murder and them being traced to me. He said if I sell any of the rifles David transfered for me they'd go to him first and then trace them to me. Then I would show them any info. I have on the firearm such as who purchased it and they'd go to them.

You are exactly correct about the fast and furious aspect and that's part of why I think this agent talked to me. Not because he thought I was buying these rifles as a straw purchase neccesarily but he wanted to feel me out. Like you said no drug cartels are buying up old bolt guns to use as their weapon of choice. That said he might get in trouble if it was found out later I decided to buy firearms for someone and he knew about me and never talked to me. They already have a bunch of egg on their face behind that and I suspect we haven't seen the end of that. He also didn't know some of the laws and refered me to someone in the office. He said he's only in enforcement and if I had specific questions about selling rifles and the C&R to call and ask for a guy who's name he wrote on his business card to answer them. When I asked him about the selling of firearms in a private sale and how I'd know if they were ok to sell to he looked at me and said "If they have gold teeth, their hat turned around backwards and their pants are down below their butt I wouldn't sell to them".

Bill is absolutely right about the grey areas and having to defend yourself. If you get on their radar and they decide to scrutinze you it could be extremely costly trying to prove that you're doing everything correctly and they don't care if it breaks you in the process. This in itself is why I didn't want a C&R myself. Doesn't mean I'll never get one but for now I just didn't see the need for it and the chance they'd decide to give me the once over. I'm doing nothing wrong whatsoever but that doesn't matter to them. I never thought I'd be questioned by an ATF agent during a legal purchase through a licensed FFL dealer though either. The chances of anyone who has a C&R being scrutinzed is small especially with the jump in applications recently I'm sure but I'm just not feeling that lucky lately.

[TopperT]

I'm still waiting on my C&R, I used my credit card......kind of wished I had used a check. I desperatly need one as most of my buying will qualify........maybe but the FFL transfer fees are mounting up.

I was in Govt for 31 years, local municipal government, but it still works the same as State & Federal (or doesn't, depending).......I found many who could run rings around most in the pvt. sector and choose to work for less $$$ but better benifits, and I found an equal number who had difficulty selecting their floor from the list offered in the elevator each AM.

I also had Civil Service, Union, Politically appointed employees ........now THEY WERE A BIG PROBLEM , ever try to fire (for VERY just cause) the Mayors nephew, who was a 6 year Civil Service employee AND the Union Stewart? it took 3 years just to get him out of my Dept, and is STILL under review....and I've been retired five years now!!!!

[tjtM38]

I found this on the ATF website; it has some good information about private transfers. You should still check your state laws which could be more restrictive.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicen ... rd-keeping

I also found this form which could be useful for private transfers if your state allows.

http://www.beararms.com/PDF/FTUP.pdf

[desdem12]

I used a credit card and it took about 3 weeks

[BostonMike]

As far as i know you can destroy it. If you decide to start again then you just have to get another book. The previous weapons would not have to go in it. You can keep the book, or hide it i would imagine though as they would have no jurisdiction over you if you have no current license.

Kinda why I wanted to let it expire, wait 6-12 months and then reapply. I haven't even bought a firearm in 6 months, so I could use the opportunity to clean the slate


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[Darryl]

OK, after reading this entire thread I have decide to address some of the "mis-information" that is going on here.


1) C&R licenses are extremely dangerous to your savings account.
True: Not much more needs to be said.

[hr]
2) Some places give dealer discounts to 03 holders.
True: Some places like MidwayUSA give discounts on everything to C&R holders

[hr]
3) Mailing address.

Your mailing or "shipping address" can be anywhere you like. Here in California we have C&R holders with two different Licenses. One in California and one in another state like Nevada where they have relatives. The BATF will issue multiple licenses to the same person.


We do this in California because we are not allowed to use our C&R license to have a C&R handgun sent to us in the state. Long guns are OK, but not c&R hand guns. But we are allowed to go out of state and buy a C&R hand gun and bring it back into the state. I know, it's stupid, but that is Calif law.

The BATF said, well just issue a second license to you with your out of state address. So I can now have it sent to my Brothers in Nevada with my one license (with the Nevada address) and I pick it up when I go visit. All my long guns go to me here in Calif directly.

Completely legal and nothing Calif can do about it.

[hr]
4) The premise address needs to be your residence, your mailing address can be some wheres else.

Correct.

[hr]
5) Might be an issue of you get audited. You'd have to do the audit at the address on the license I believe

False. If you contact the BATF (when and if you get an audit notice) you have the right to also do the audit in their office. That is is the law. If you tell them the address is only your receiving address, you can also do the audit where the rifles are. YOUR CHOICE.

[hr]
6) half the dealers I dealt with didn't recognize them (whether they were supposed to or not, it is there choice) and most dealers resent you having one because you aren't really in business but you get most of their advantages for nothing compared to them.

Well, that is their loss. Out here in California where it is arguably more strict, Our one C&R shop (over an hour away) will allow me to buy a C&R and take it with me if I have the C&R. Without it I wait 14 days and have to make a 2 hour round trip to get it. Yes, this is unusual. But I don't have a 03FFL to buy C&R in state.
If you are only buying C&R's in your state then you are at the mercy of what the shops around you bring into their shops or at gunshows. You will have a severly restricted amount of rifles to pick from. Some you may never see. Good deal for the shops and gunshows, not so good for a collector.
Having a C&R allow me to buy rifles from anywhere. It allows me to have a huge selection of firearms. Now I can do this also if I use a local 01FFL, but as some have already stated, out here (Calif)that will add $75 to $100 to the cost of each firearm. Maybe a little less in some states or areas.

[hr]
7) Mail order guns can be a big dissapointment at times and I don't need return fee's and all the crap that goes with it.

Not if you know what you are looking at and have studied the rifles. Know who you are dealing with. I have over 100 transactions with my C&R and having them sent to me. I have never had a problem or an issue with any of those transaction. That is because I have done my homework and if needed, I ask for many more photos of what I want to look at. If they refuse, I pass. I have never had anyone not send more photos of areas I have ask for...none.


[hr]
8) All these people that think the BATF is going to get them. They need to go put another layer of tin foil on their tinfoil hats.

I do a lot of monitoring of other forums and have for years now. I have read about 3 audits on 03FFL's...three! All of them came out with no problems at all except one made a boo boo on the book and they asked him to correct it and that was it!

Come on, Quite trying to scare people with this crap. No one is trying to "get you" or anyone else. If you do the paper work (and it is extremely easy) nothing will happen to you. The BATF really spends very little time on 03FFL licenses.

If you go by the rules you will have no problems at all.

[hr]

A few words about buying and selling using a 03FFL.

A 03FL is not for selling. It is for collecting of C&R firearms. If you have a C&R firearms you need to dispose of to allow a "better" sample of the same thing, or you change your direction of collecting, you are allowed to sell using your 03FFL.

Where you can get in trouble is buying a C&R for the purpose of selling it to another. Called a "Straw Man purchase". This is not allowed. The only way the BATF can see this is if you buy the rifle and add it to your book and immediately remove it from your book and sell it. They will ask you about this if they catch it. But if you buy a C&R and add it into your book and immediately decide you don't like it, you can sell it immediately and that is a good excuse. Just don't do it often or it looks like you are in business. You are not allowed to do business with a 03FFL license. Just stick to the rules and don't try to short cut them. If you do and get caught, you deserve it.


If I didn't have a C&R license, my collection would be perhaps 10% of the rifles I have now and they would not be as rare and interesting as they are. YOU have to decide if you need a C&R or not. No one can tell you that. If you are only buying a few rifles and that is it, then a C&R is probably a waste of time.

But owning a C&R license can open up a huge market that is usually unavailable to the average person. If you are a collector and are only relying on local shops and gunshows, you are playing with a huge handy cap. You will only get to see what they bring into their shops. And if you have to pay big money ($50 or more) to a 01FFL to transfer a firearm on the internet, then it will add up quickly.

Know your firearms and study them. Know what you are looking at. Ask lots of questions and ask for plenty of photos. Know who you are dealing with and you will never have a problem with a C&R purchase.

If anyone feels they are not getting a good answer on C&R license here, you can always call the BATF or look at their website. It is all there and it is not magic. But there are laws you have to adhere to.

Dolk

[Oramaac4572]

Thanks Dolk!!!

What about transfers, are you allowed to transfer a C&R that someone else purchased on the internet?

[Junk Yard Dog]

That crate of Mosins I have up in another thread, every rifle in it was purchased using the C&R.
Transfer? You mean sell a C&R out of your book to another C&R? That's fine but don't show a profit on that rifle you are not in the business of making money selling firearms, show a five buck profit and you are in business.