Siamese marked 1899 dragoon rifle

[mitch5690]

My father picked this rifle up from a recent auction at RIA. Rifle has a chakra often seen on Siamese used enfields or type 45s


Unupdated with no cross bolt and the very rare type on hand gaurd.

[mitch5690]

The best guess as to why this rifle is Siamese marked is early in the 20th century Siam was looking to adapt a new firearm over the old M88 rifles. They looked at foreign manufactured rifles(eventually closing a rifle sent by Japan.) At a recent auction in Maine they had a similar 1896 marked Cossack. They also had at the auction a Mauser made in 1902 similar to a Swedish M96 that was definitely a test rifle sent to Asian also marked with the Chakra.

[Judi and her Mosins]

Very nice...Excellent pictures also.

[WWW]

Wow.

I've never seen that handguard before. I couldn't find a dragoon in the showcase with one either.

Possible submission to the showcase here?

[Junk Yard Dog]

[ffuries]

showcase..........I've never seen that type of handguard. Can anyone enlighten us on the handguard? Like how long did they do it like that, etc?

Hell the handguard itself is worthy of a writeup!

[Rongo]

Damn!!!

Hot Damn!!!!

Wow I like that... I really dig the handguard!

I say showcase...

[Longcolt44]

The only problem I see is it doesn't belong to me.

[zeebill]

Old original style hand guard used with old flat rear sight. Like rarer than hen's teeth. Used on Dragoons of an almost never seen original condition. Like never been through refit or improvement. Most of what many people call original Dragoons come up short to this rifle in many ways. Thanks for sharing the pics! Mitch. Educated a lot of people I see, good move I would say! Bill

[WWW]

Well... still haven't heard from some of the experts here. How many of them have ever seen an original Dragoon handguard in person, I wonder.

I agree, the handguard alone makes it worthwhile for the showcase.

[willyj73]

Yes, that is definitely something that should be in the showcase. It's hard enough to find an all matching rifle from that time period with early features. It's extremely rare to find one like Mitchell has. He has a few showcase worthy Mosins btw.
I've read about the hand guards, but don't think I've seen many other rifles with them (if any). I think the M1907 Carbines use the wrap around hand guards as well. I own a Dragoon with the 2nd pattern hand guard which is also pretty scarce/rare. Mostly all of the ones on the market have the 91/30 style hand guards.

[racerguy00]

Great rifle and showcase for sure. I've been lucky enough to see one other all original early dragoon in not quite as good of condition. Never thought I'd see another. Amazing

[steelbuttplate]

Well... still haven't heard from some of the experts here. How many of them have ever seen an original Dragoon handguard in person, I wonder.

I agree, the handguard alone makes it worthwhile for the showcase.

I'm no expert, but I've looked at thousands. First one I've ever seen. There is one that Millertyme posted thats a 1914 that may have been cut down from one of these hand guards. You think they were broken easily beside the sight like the short piece on a Mk 1 # 3. ?

[Darryl]

Looks kind of like a First Pattern 1907 Carbine.


First Pattern 1907 Carbine


Could be that is because they used these to make the carbine??? Don't know. But these are both called a "first pattern" in both cases.



There is one of the above in the reference pages above if you look.
app.php/page/99


First Pattern 1899 Dragoon M91



Second Pattern 1899 Dragoon M91

[steelbuttplate]

I hadn't seen that. I'm still wondering if the first pattern were converted to the second pattern due to breakage. It would have been an easy fix and might be why very few exist.

[mitch5690]

Many first pattern hand guards were cut down to type twos. And this rifle is my fathers just to clarify.

[bunkysdad]

My God you found that at a RIA auction house? Was there a rainbow over the building? Was this rifle straddling a pot of Leprechauns gold? Not only a showcase worthy example but may just become my favorite of the showcase examples. Please feel free to post all the extra pictures you want of this gem. Congrats on acquiring it too

[zeebill]

There are many things at auctions that are portrayed with poor pictures and descriptions. The only ways to find them are call (sometimes multiple times to different people) and ask for accurate verbal descriptions. Or the killer way get in your transport and go there and handle things. This costs money, takes time. and requires effort. Mitch's Dad and he spend the money and take the time and effort thus they get the results as do many other collectors. &Years ago when I was doing it more I saw very few people I knew from here and other forums at these events but these days I see quite a few. Many times I leave because of who is there and knowing their spending habits. It is a hands down bet because of who is there the prices are all gonna be sky high and out of my league. Other times I see holes in the product for sale that worries me and I head for home. This is why I get freaked out at times at people who are advertising that they saw such and such at this sale or shop. That type of thing makes me wonder at times if they are secretly the seller trying to hype their own wares. Why do you think most forums have rules about posting active auctions? The only way you can get decent buys these days are shut your mouth and do your thing. If you have questions many knowledgeable people will give you an opinion if they are not looking at the same thing or similar things. Send them an email and quietly offline ask a question instead of ramping the price up online by blowing it all over the internet. If you must do these things you need to be in a different hobby or something because you are not helping anybody get that piece you need just the seller. Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

Feel free to blab away about any of my auctions, shout them far and wide and bid the price up to the sky and beyond Do it with anyone else's auctions on this board and the post will vanish like smoke in the wind. I like to hear about collectors spending huge sums for these relics, at this point in my life I have enough and could give two shits about acquiring more. When I hear about someone spending five times what I would have spent for something I think to myself that at least that relic will be taken care of and protected from Bubba. I well remember the crap we would see when 91/30 refurbs were $45, the poly stocks, bent bolt handles, chrome plating.... Now at nearly $300 people are less inclined to mess about with their milsurps and destroy the resale value, $3000 would be better, then they would have them locked up behind glass in conditioned air. I am perfectly OK with looking at pictures of somebody else's hugely expensive rifle. I don't have to pay for it, take care of it, insure it, or worry about it. I am perfectly happy with some worn old relic, it doesn't even have to shoot for me to think it's cool, or be 100% " correct". It was still a part of history, and that's what I am in this for. Fuck the investments, how tight it's groups are, what the bore looks like, who cares, it's the history that matters. There are very few firearms of any type that I would pay more than $250 for today, part of that is because I have a lot already, the other is I am tight with a buck, I did my buying at the right time.

[SA1911a1]

Is there a Mosin-Nagant rifle that is more rare than that one?