Mosin accuracy?

[44Nagant]

So, not wanting to start any heated debates but, I'm not the most versed on firearms. My question is this, I've heard that rifles are generally more accurate with a longer barrel so, how come the Mosin's are really not that accurate @100yds from what I'm reading. What is it that makes them less so than lets say, the '03A3?

[Junk Yard Dog]

Too many factors here. I have a friend who can't hit the side of a barn with any of my 1903's or my M1 Garand. This isn't because the rifles are worn, or the ammo is bad, or because the barn moves around, it's because he can't shoot for shit, no skills or inclination to work at improving them. By and large most Soviet Mosins I have found to be 4-6 MOA shooters at 100 yards with me behind the trigger, maybe an inch or so less when someone with younger eyes shoot the rifles. Finn M39's tend to be more 2 MOA at 100 yards like the bulk of my 1903's. Why are Soviet rifles not as accurate as Finn's? some are, I have a 1938 Tula that I actually shot a 2" group with at 100 yards using cheap surplus ammo, and others that performed close to that level. Most are "good enough", the Soviets were not training marksman, individual marksmanship was not emphasized since the Soviets had huge manpower reserves and could just blanket the enemy with lead from every direction hoping some connected. They saw no reason to waste time perfecting the rifles down into 2 or 1 MOA shooters when the soldiers were not being trained to take full advantage of such a weapon. The Finn's on the other hand had limited manpower, they needed every man to be a rifleman to make up for the lack of numbers. When possible they gave their soldiers the tools of a rifleman and trained them to use such them, the M39 has sights well above the level of the 91/30, and they had barrels made to closer tolerances, the entire rifle is made to perform as best a Mosin can. Now I don't know the level of your shooting skill, training is what makes a rifleman, that and practice, knowing your weapon and it's capabilities from experience on the range. Then there is ammo, each batch, or each different brand will perform slightly differently, handloaders spend endless time perfecting loads to maximize their weapons accuracy. Playing with bullet weights, powders and powder charges, primers, cases, this is a hobby all on it's own.

At 100 yards any Mosin type rifle or carbine will do just fine if the shooter and the condition of the weapon are up to the task. 100 yards for a full house .30 cartridge is like using a '69 Hemi Plymouth GTX just to run down your driveway to the mailbox. It's at longer distances that things like barrel length come into play. Early Mosin design was influenced by 19th century black powder era thinking were longer barrels are better. By the end of WW2 the Soviets understood that battles are won at 50 yards not 500, the M44 is the result of this new thinking. Let the snipers reach out and touch someone at 600 yards, Ivan the regular infantry grunt did his killing at 100 yards or less most of the time.

Sometimes it's the rifles fault, or the ammo, or you, or all three if performance on the range is less than expected. If you had someone to supervise your training it would be easier to figure out were the trouble is. Lacking that you will have to work it out for yourself.

[44Nagant]

Thank you! I am going to definitely spend some time behind the trigger of my 91/30 getting a good feel of how she will handle. I will also try some different brands of ammo to find what she likes there. I am not set up to do reloading and don't have time to play around with all that but, do understand the reasons behind it. Is there anything I can do to the rifle, without altering it in anyway, that will help with accuracy?

[TnBuckeye]

Too many factors here. I have a friend who can't hit the side of a barn with any of my 1903's or my M1 Garand. This isn't because the rifles are worn, or the ammo is bad, or because the barn moves around, it's because he can't shoot for shit, no skills or inclination to work at improving them. By and large most Soviet Mosins I have found to be 4-6 MOA shooters at 100 yards with me behind the trigger, maybe an inch or so less when someone with younger eyes shoot the rifles. Finn M39's tend to be more 2 MOA at 100 yards like the bulk of my 1903's. Why are Soviet rifles not as accurate as Finn's? some are, I have a 1938 Tula that I actually shot a 2" group with at 100 yards using cheap surplus ammo, and others that performed close to that level. Most are "good enough", the Soviets were not training marksman, individual marksmanship was not emphasized since the Soviets had huge manpower reserves and could just blanket the enemy with lead from every direction hoping some connected. They saw no reason to waste time perfecting the rifles down into 2 or 1 MOA shooters when the soldiers were not being trained to take full advantage of such a weapon. The Finn's on the other hand had limited manpower, they needed every man to be a rifleman to make up for the lack of numbers. When possible they gave their soldiers the tools of a rifleman and trained them to use such them, the M39 has sights well above the level of the 91/30, and they had barrels made to closer tolerances, the entire rifle is made to perform as best a Mosin can. Now I don't know the level of your shooting skill, training is what makes a rifleman, that and practice, knowing your weapon and it's capabilities from experience on the range. Then there is ammo, each batch, or each different brand will perform slightly differently, handloaders spend endless time perfecting loads to maximize their weapons accuracy. Playing with bullet weights, powders and powder charges, primers, cases, this is a hobby all on it's own.

At 100 yards any Mosin type rifle or carbine will do just fine if the shooter and the condition of the weapon are up to the task. 100 yards for a full house .30 cartridge is like using a '69 Hemi Plymouth GTX just to run down your driveway to the mailbox. It's at longer distances that things like barrel length come into play. Early Mosin design was influenced by 19th century black powder era thinking were longer barrels are better. By the end of WW2 the Soviets understood that battles are won at 50 yards not 500, the M44 is the result of this new thinking. Let the snipers reach out and touch someone at 600 yards, Ivan the regular infantry grunt did his killing at 100 yards or less most of the time.

Sometimes it's the rifles fault, or the ammo, or you, or all three if performance on the range is less than expected. If you had someone to supervise your training it would be easier to figure out were the trouble is. Lacking that you will have to work it out for yourself.

Mostly, this^

I am by no means a marksman, and have shot dramatically fewer than many members here, but from my experience I would add a few things.

If you are talking about a M44, be sure the bayonet is extended and attached. I found this to make a HUGE difference on mine.

Try different ammo and heavier weight bullets. I have found this to make some difference in some Russian models I have shot, with heavier grain being a little better especially if the bore is worn.

JYD hit the most important things though I think. Good mechanics and practice. For me this is what is most fun, and since I generally suck as a marksman now, I get to enjoy lots of practice and measure the improvement over time.


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[musketjon]

2 of the 4 I own will shoot 2" groups at 100 yards all day long as long as I do my part. The other 2 I don't know about yet--haven't taken them out to exercise them yet. They are capable of fine accuracy. I recently shot my 91/30 at a 600 yard competition. It turned in a respectable 269-1X out of a possible 300. I'm sure my 61 year old eyes are a major part of the equation.
Jon

[44Nagant]

Jon, thank you for your input! 600yds is pretty good shooting and gives me some hope. That is, hopefully mine will perform that well. :-)

[Junk Yard Dog]

Thank you! I am going to definitely spend some time behind the trigger of my 91/30 getting a good feel of how she will handle. I will also try some different brands of ammo to find what she likes there. I am not set up to do reloading and don't have time to play around with all that but, do understand the reasons behind it. Is there anything I can do to the rifle, without altering it in anyway, that will help with accuracy?

Some people cut shims out of beer can metal and stick them under the action like the Finns did. These days I think you can buy Finn style shims, this may or may not help but will not alter the rifle. Finding out if they help or not will require extensive range time, test the rifle first so you know exactly what it does without the shims.

[entropy]

Thank you! I am going to definitely spend some time behind the trigger of my 91/30 getting a good feel of how she will handle. I will also try some different brands of ammo to find what she likes there. I am not set up to do reloading and don't have time to play around with all that but, do understand the reasons behind it. Is there anything I can do to the rifle, without altering it in anyway, that will help with accuracy?

Learn to shoot it as accurately as possible with that particular rifle.

Rongo has a '42 Ishevsk 91/30 that has a terrible trigger, even as Mosins go, and both of us can shoot that rifle very well. (better than some of our friend using their RemChester 70/0's.) If you take the time to learn to shoot a bad trigger well, you'll still get good accuracy from that gun, and even better accuracy from every other gun you shoot.

[zeebill]

Accuracy takes time and effort with any weapon. People today want instant success and many are not willing or able to put in the time and effort to find that success. Then you add in the other limiting factors like age, ability or talent, and what the weapon was designed to do in the first place. You may find yourself way out in left field after all these things are considered and have to be satisfied with limited successes available to you. My only advise would be try and be consistent, patient, and thoughtful in your approach and see what happens.

One thing I know for sure is don't listen to people too much and try things for yourself to find the right direction for you. Don't let other peoples prejudices influence your direction and try what you think may work before throwing things out as not being a viable approach. Things may work for you and not for others. One thing to keep in mind for me is I do this for fun and to keep myself busy doing things I enjoy in my old age so that concept rules all. Other than that go for it and Good Luck Shooting! Bill

[44Nagant]

I do plan to take an approach of open mindedness. I got the rifle for fun and that's what my intentions are so, I am going to just see what she/I can do together. One thing for sure, playing around with different ammo and such, just gives me more excuses to go shoot!

[SA1911a1]

To paraphrase Chuck Yeager,"it's usually the man, not the machine." A Mosin-Nagant rifle with a good bore and a good crown will produce good shooting. A run-of-the-mil refurbished Mosin probably won't win you any medals at Camp Perry, but for most of us they are good enough. One of the most successful snipers in WWII shot a Mosin-Nagant with iron sights and just simply slaughtered the Russians. Now, his rifle had been tweaked by the Finns, but it was still the same basic platform.

Get a bunch of ammo, go to the range and see how the rifle will work for you, you may be pleasantly surprised.

[SSGTSemperFi]

As others have said, stacking two+ rounds in the same hole is largely going to be by chance.

I got the chance to get some range time in this past weekend, bench rested, my 91/30 was shooting 5-6 MOA while my Yugo capture 98k/98/48/whatever you'd like to call it was grouping 2-3 at 100 yards. With a bit of practice with her, I'm sure that I could bring that down even the slightest bit further (first range day with her)

I'm far-and-wide not the best shot in the world, but there is a noticeable "drop" in accuracy with my mosin over other rifles in my hand. For me, she's about fun though, about the thump in the shoulder and the crack in the ears.

[44Nagant]

First off, thank you for your service! I am going to order up some brass this evening. Couldn't find anything local but, Tulammo and there was plenty of that. Seems everyone is out of the brass stuff. Like you, it is about the fun for me also. I'm looking to get familiar with my rifle real well.

SA1911a1: My Mosin has a real good bore and crown so, I'm hoping she'll be a good shooter.

[dou44]

I can still do good with one at 100 yards shooting from a rest. they may not shoot as good as some of my k98's but they will shoot a nice group if you take your time and learn the feel of that rifle.i had one with a nice bore but it would not shoot good much of a pattern till I made sure the barrel fit the stock like it should . barrel kept moving around.

[44Nagant]

What's a K98? Is that German?

[Junk Yard Dog]

Karabiner 98 kurz or K98 for short was the shortened version of the old GEW1898 Mauser rifle the Germans used during the Great War 1914-1918. The K98 was the standard German infantry rifle of WW2, it uses the large ring Mauser action that is known the world over and has been widely copied.

[NLMosin]

I am going to order up some brass this evening. Couldn't find anything local but, Tulammo and there was plenty of that. Seems everyone is out of the brass stuff.

Got a Walmart near you? My local WallyWorld has Winchester brass.....and Im in NY!!

[44Nagant]

Yep, they were a no go also. I just ordered 100rds of Prvi Partizan 182gr FMJBT Match for $14.99 a box of 20. This will get me started for now I recon.

JYD: Thanks for the info. Going to read up on that one.

[Jbob]

Yep, they were a no go also. I just ordered 100rds of Prvi Partizan 182gr FMJBT Match for $14.99 a box of 20. This will get me started for now I recon.

JYD: Thanks for the info. Going to read up on that one.

You'll be very pleased with the PPU ammo on the range and I've found the casings great for reloading in all the cals. they offer.
I've learned pretty quick to only take one rifle at a time to the range. Staying focused much better that way and have started taking my time while shooting even if it's just a short walk each shot out to the target and back after each shot. I hardly ever use the spotting scope anymore to check results, just enjoy and try to slow down my fast paced life....

[Jbob]

I joined some local friends a few years ago for a military bolt match shooting steel plates at different yardages ( point blank out to 385 yards ) at all sorts of shooting positions. All I had at that time was 1 old war time 91/30 that as said " couldn't hit the side of a barn "...
Older friend took me off to the side and set up a 40 yard target having me shoot several times telling me how to hold and what to do.
End of the event I found myself in 3rd place out of around 20 shooters that day.

Over the years I've seen many times when a shooter would pick up a handgun and then say it was no good after missing several shots.
Most any weapon will do its job if the shooter will take the time to practice and keep focused.