Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Last February, I picked up a forlorn looking little Mosin Nagant for $90 with an Izhevsk Arsenal tang date of 1917.
The gun had an extremely unfortunate meeting with Bubba, and it's matching numbered stock was cut.
And it also had numbers on wierd parts like the bolt head, cocking knob, rear sight leaf, just under the rear sight base, the receiver, and the left side barrel shank. Normal parts like the floor plate, buttplate, and bolt body also matched.
But the strangest part was the where one would expect to find some good information - the barrel shank. It was completely blank, except for one crest stamp and a lonely number.
And now for you seasoned collectors (THIS MEANS YOU, MILLMAN !!!), I would ask you to hold your tongue for a moment to allow others to speculate....
OK, guys. What the heck did I find?
The gun had an extremely unfortunate meeting with Bubba, and it's matching numbered stock was cut.
And it also had numbers on wierd parts like the bolt head, cocking knob, rear sight leaf, just under the rear sight base, the receiver, and the left side barrel shank. Normal parts like the floor plate, buttplate, and bolt body also matched.
But the strangest part was the where one would expect to find some good information - the barrel shank. It was completely blank, except for one crest stamp and a lonely number.
And now for you seasoned collectors (THIS MEANS YOU, MILLMAN !!!), I would ask you to hold your tongue for a moment to allow others to speculate....
OK, guys. What the heck did I find?
Last edited by martin08 on Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Polish 8x57 conversion. Great find. Damn bubbas ass! :evil:
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
How did you look that one up so quickly, Millman?
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
- Miller Tyme
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
The bolt head is a big give away........
Bet that would be pricey to replace.
Bet that would be pricey to replace.
“The only real power comes out of a long rifle" - Joseph Stalin
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Bolt head, shortened chamber and 7.95 marking give it away, Great Find!
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
I didn't have to look that one up. It pays to remember these things. Did you get that one on an auction site, or find it in person?martin08 wrote:How did you look that one up so quickly, Millman?
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
- Darryl
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Can I let go yet?
Dolk
Dolk
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
millman wrote: I didn't have to look that one up. It pays to remember these things. Did you get that one on an auction site, or find it in person?
That's Ok, millman. You probably just missed reading the second to last line in the OP.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
- Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Shit, I would like to kick that Bubba in the ass hard enough for him to taste shinola, such a rare piece, what a shame.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
dolk wrote:Can I let go yet?
Dolk
Oh, yeah. You're all good to go.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Honestly I did. I posted the answer, and then read it. Crap. Oh well.martin08 wrote:millman wrote: I didn't have to look that one up. It pays to remember these things. Did you get that one on an auction site, or find it in person?
That's Ok, millman. You probably just missed reading the second to last line in the OP.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Oh, well. So, we go with the flow. ;)
A little history on the Polish Wz. 91/98/25:
The 1920's spawned the desire in Poland to consolidate munitions, and a good number of the captured Tzarist era M91's were converted from 7.62X54 to the German 8mm round - 7.92X57. The results were designated as the wz. 91/98/23, wz. 91/98/25, and wz. 91/98/26 Mosin Nagants. The 91 referring to the Mosin M91, the 98 for the Mauser K98, and the 23, 25, and 26 as the production year. Known armories were located in Radom and Polish occupied Lwow. Acutal bore diameters were stamped on the barrel shank, and Polish eagles were the usual distinct markings.
In general, they featured a shortened rechambered 8mm barrel, modified magazines and rear sights, a new bolt head to accommodate the rimless cartridge, redesigned interrupter and ejector (late versions), and stock changes to augment inletting for the smaller chamber. The forend was shortened and fitted to accept the Mauser bayonet lug and barrel band on the '25 and 26's. Sling attachments varied significantly from rear lower and/or side K98 or wz. 29 Mauser swivels with plugged slots, or open sling slots with wire hangers - front attachment points varied as well with many combinations of plugged or open slots, wire hangers and some with wz. 29 front bands with swivels. Upper handguards were generally shortened from M91's.
The converted Mosins were commonly described as second line small arms in cavalry and infantry units, but these were also issued in lesser numbers to the Polish State Police, Forest Service and Border Guards. Sources point to approximately 70,000 to 77,000 units were produced in the three production years. In the mid 1930's, Poland eventually phased out the firearm. Some (approx 3,000) were sold to Spain for the Civil War, others to Yugoslavia, and by 1939, the inventory in Poland was said to be 1 unit. Remaining units worldwide are unknown, with very few 23's. The most common is the '25, and these are the usual specimens found - with some sources calling them 26's if exhibiting the upgraded interrupter/ejector combination.
Some translated links (hope they work!)
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
A little history on the Polish Wz. 91/98/25:
The 1920's spawned the desire in Poland to consolidate munitions, and a good number of the captured Tzarist era M91's were converted from 7.62X54 to the German 8mm round - 7.92X57. The results were designated as the wz. 91/98/23, wz. 91/98/25, and wz. 91/98/26 Mosin Nagants. The 91 referring to the Mosin M91, the 98 for the Mauser K98, and the 23, 25, and 26 as the production year. Known armories were located in Radom and Polish occupied Lwow. Acutal bore diameters were stamped on the barrel shank, and Polish eagles were the usual distinct markings.
In general, they featured a shortened rechambered 8mm barrel, modified magazines and rear sights, a new bolt head to accommodate the rimless cartridge, redesigned interrupter and ejector (late versions), and stock changes to augment inletting for the smaller chamber. The forend was shortened and fitted to accept the Mauser bayonet lug and barrel band on the '25 and 26's. Sling attachments varied significantly from rear lower and/or side K98 or wz. 29 Mauser swivels with plugged slots, or open sling slots with wire hangers - front attachment points varied as well with many combinations of plugged or open slots, wire hangers and some with wz. 29 front bands with swivels. Upper handguards were generally shortened from M91's.
The converted Mosins were commonly described as second line small arms in cavalry and infantry units, but these were also issued in lesser numbers to the Polish State Police, Forest Service and Border Guards. Sources point to approximately 70,000 to 77,000 units were produced in the three production years. In the mid 1930's, Poland eventually phased out the firearm. Some (approx 3,000) were sold to Spain for the Civil War, others to Yugoslavia, and by 1939, the inventory in Poland was said to be 1 unit. Remaining units worldwide are unknown, with very few 23's. The most common is the '25, and these are the usual specimens found - with some sources calling them 26's if exhibiting the upgraded interrupter/ejector combination.
Some translated links (hope they work!)
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... rmd%3Divns
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
I already did kick Bubba down a notch.Junk Yard Dog wrote:Shit, I would like to kick that Bubba in the ass hard enough for him to taste shinola, such a rare piece, what a shame.
DISCLAIMER!!! No Mosin M91 stocks, Mausers, or small animals were sacrificed for the following reproduction. All parts were obtained from unserviceable firearms, and I can return its original stock at any time. It just looks far more appropriate for the variation.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Reminds me of the .30-06 variations of converted Mosin that crop up from time to time, most of them considered unsafe, what did the Poles do that made theirs good shooters? The .30-06 model also has a cut back chamber, mod to the bolt head, but no mod to the stock.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
- bunkysdad
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
The first time I had heard of one of these was a couple of years ago when I found one for auction by a seller of high end military firearms, and best I remember his starting price was about 1500.00.
I couldn't tell from your first pics, did bubba leave the front sight intact or did you have to fix that? This gun is so nice now that you rescued it. Thank God bubba didn't drill and tap the receiver and throw on a big scope.
I couldn't tell from your first pics, did bubba leave the front sight intact or did you have to fix that? This gun is so nice now that you rescued it. Thank God bubba didn't drill and tap the receiver and throw on a big scope.
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Yes, it looks great. It's a shame on that original stock though.bunkysdad wrote:The first time I had heard of one of these was a couple of years ago when I found one for auction by a seller of high end military firearms, and best I remember his starting price was about 1500.00.
I couldn't tell from your first pics, did bubba leave the front sight intact or did you have to fix that? This gun is so nice now that you rescued it. Thank God bubba didn't drill and tap the receiver and throw on a big scope.
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it". Mark Twain
"Dang that entropy"
"Dang that entropy"
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
bunkysdad wrote:The first time I had heard of one of these was a couple of years ago when I found one for auction by a seller of high end military firearms, and best I remember his starting price was about 1500.00.
I couldn't tell from your first pics, did bubba leave the front sight intact or did you have to fix that? This gun is so nice now that you rescued it. Thank God bubba didn't drill and tap the receiver and throw on a big scope.
The last whole one that sold came in May from Empire Arms. It was mismatched, but not Bubba'd. The list price was $2,800.00
The front sight is original, the Poles pinned them on. The vertical profile of the rear sight base was ground down and the sight leaf was flattened to accommodate the trajectory of the 8mm ballistics.
Very glad that bubba left the metal intact. It was in a private collection since the mid 1960's, and the collector's index card showed that he bought it for $14.
I found this one at a local gun show. I didn't know what it was, and I left it there (won't ever do that again!). When I went to the vendor's shop a couple weeks later, he still had it - luckily! I talked him out of it for $90 OTD.millman wrote: Did you get that one on an auction site, or find it in person?
My next one came via Gunbroker, just last month. It was poorly indexed and only two people bid on it. Got that one for $235 - but that's another story for another thread.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Sweet.martin08 wrote:I found this one at a local gun show. I didn't know what it was, and I left it there (won't ever do that again!). When I went to the vendor's shop a couple weeks later, he still had it - luckily! I talked him out of it for $90 OTD.millman wrote: Did you get that one on an auction site, or find it in person?
My next one came via Gunbroker, just last month. It was poorly indexed and only two people bid on it. Got that one for $235 - but that's another story for another thread.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
- Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Yes, best the seller isn't checking the Mosin forums before you post that one. " man takes handfull of pills after selling $3000 rifle for $235 on internet"
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Re: Quiz for the Budding Mosin Collector
Junk Yard Dog wrote:Yes, best the seller isn't checking the Mosin forums before you post that one. " man takes handfull of pills after selling $3000 rifle for $235 on internet"
I told him what it was before he shipped it. He said, "Oh well, it's been in the back room of the gun shop for over thirty years. Time for it to go!"
And it will never be a $3,000 gun, either. It was also Bubba'd - but in a different way. My suspicion is that Samuel Cummings had his hands on it at one time.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....