Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
Hello. I am wondering what stuff I should look for when I meet this guy who has a numbers matching 91/30 from 1943. The pictures aren't that great and he live a few hours away. I already told him I would buy and I'm not the type of person to back out. Still, I'm curious as to what I may want to look for when I see this rifle in person. I plan on giving him $180 for the rifle and 20 rounds. Should I throw in $15 for the mismatched bayonet he's offering with it?
From what I've noticed in the pictures, I'm wondering about the sling slots. This one doesn't have the metal pieces, so it looks to be "early to middle war". This seems strange because I've seen a few from 42 which do have the metal pieces inside the sling slots. Is this one of those common things where they used an older stock to make the weapon in 1943? Do most 1943 models seem to have the metal pieces in the sling slots?
The stock seems to be slightly shiny. I don't think this means it's laminated, but I don't know. I know on my 1947 m44 the wood seems more dull. Do war time stocks sometimes have a bit of a shine to them?
Here are the blurry pics:
From what I've noticed in the pictures, I'm wondering about the sling slots. This one doesn't have the metal pieces, so it looks to be "early to middle war". This seems strange because I've seen a few from 42 which do have the metal pieces inside the sling slots. Is this one of those common things where they used an older stock to make the weapon in 1943? Do most 1943 models seem to have the metal pieces in the sling slots?
The stock seems to be slightly shiny. I don't think this means it's laminated, but I don't know. I know on my 1947 m44 the wood seems more dull. Do war time stocks sometimes have a bit of a shine to them?
Here are the blurry pics:
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
This is a refurbished wartime dated M91/30. You are correct that it is in a wartime stock. It is not a laminate stock. The shine you are seeing is from the shellac that the Reds put on these rifles post-war as a cheap wood seal for long-term storage when they were refurbishing literally millions of these rifles. The numbers should match because the bolt, magazine floor-plate and the buttplate were re-stamped (or in some cases electro-penciled) to match the number on the barrel shank. That was done during the refurbishment process. It's called "force matching," and do not think that this is an "all original numbers matching rifle."
While the photos are not clear, the stock looks like it is in decent condition. When you actually see the weapon, you might notice small wood repairs, which were often necessary at the nose of the stock. That's not uncommon.
A year ago, you could go to the Cabela's in Hamburg, PA, any time and find dozens of these on the rack, Black Friday sale price $139 with a bayonet. Today, there are none at all. On-line prices for these are all over the map, ranging from around $175-180 up to $250, and in some cases $400+ (yes, for a 1943 refurb). A weekend or two ago, I saw two beat up 1943s for $215 and $250 respectively at a local gun shop. You really have to be careful before you buy any milsurp, and you are wise to ask here, first.
You will no doubt read about these rifles once being available for $100 or less, and a few who acquired them at that price will scoff at your paying $180. Don't listen to them. They have theirs, and the days of $100 Mosins are gone forever.
IF the rifle is mechanically sound and closer inspection does not reveal any stock issues, then in my opinion $180 and the ammo is a reasonable price. It sounds like you are avoiding shipping and transfer/background check fees, though you are spending money to drive there (and do comply with the law, of course).
The bayonet price sounds average, but make sure it fits first! Otherwise, you'll be doing some machining work.
As far as backing out is concerned, your sense of honor does you credit, but believe me, he will be able to sell this rifle at that price if you change your mind.
Three weeks ago, I went on Gunbroker (the on-line auction site), and found a 1929 ex-Dragoon, Izhevsk barrel, double-dated, MO stamped rifle with a sling. It is also built on a 1920 Tula receiver. I usually don't do this, but here's the link:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =504175726
You see what I paid for it? You see how many bids there were? That may be atypical, but it does happen.
Now. You probably do not have a C&R (federal firearm license for collectors), so you would be looking at transfer and background check fees in addition to shipping. But if you're willing to dig a little deeper to accommodate that and shop for a while, you can still find the somewhat more desirable hex receiver rifles at around this price.
I strongly encourage you to go to YouTube and to watch ALL of the Mosin videos (including those about the Mosin bolt) posted there by Junk Yard Dog under the name RockIsland1913. These are well done and very educational.
Finally, I had sworn to myself No more refurbs! You see how that worked out. These rifles are addictive. Once you start down this path (buying that second Mosin), consume you they will, and forever will they dominate your destiny. I'm not joking. Good luck!
While the photos are not clear, the stock looks like it is in decent condition. When you actually see the weapon, you might notice small wood repairs, which were often necessary at the nose of the stock. That's not uncommon.
A year ago, you could go to the Cabela's in Hamburg, PA, any time and find dozens of these on the rack, Black Friday sale price $139 with a bayonet. Today, there are none at all. On-line prices for these are all over the map, ranging from around $175-180 up to $250, and in some cases $400+ (yes, for a 1943 refurb). A weekend or two ago, I saw two beat up 1943s for $215 and $250 respectively at a local gun shop. You really have to be careful before you buy any milsurp, and you are wise to ask here, first.
You will no doubt read about these rifles once being available for $100 or less, and a few who acquired them at that price will scoff at your paying $180. Don't listen to them. They have theirs, and the days of $100 Mosins are gone forever.
IF the rifle is mechanically sound and closer inspection does not reveal any stock issues, then in my opinion $180 and the ammo is a reasonable price. It sounds like you are avoiding shipping and transfer/background check fees, though you are spending money to drive there (and do comply with the law, of course).
The bayonet price sounds average, but make sure it fits first! Otherwise, you'll be doing some machining work.
As far as backing out is concerned, your sense of honor does you credit, but believe me, he will be able to sell this rifle at that price if you change your mind.
Three weeks ago, I went on Gunbroker (the on-line auction site), and found a 1929 ex-Dragoon, Izhevsk barrel, double-dated, MO stamped rifle with a sling. It is also built on a 1920 Tula receiver. I usually don't do this, but here's the link:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =504175726
You see what I paid for it? You see how many bids there were? That may be atypical, but it does happen.
Now. You probably do not have a C&R (federal firearm license for collectors), so you would be looking at transfer and background check fees in addition to shipping. But if you're willing to dig a little deeper to accommodate that and shop for a while, you can still find the somewhat more desirable hex receiver rifles at around this price.
I strongly encourage you to go to YouTube and to watch ALL of the Mosin videos (including those about the Mosin bolt) posted there by Junk Yard Dog under the name RockIsland1913. These are well done and very educational.
Finally, I had sworn to myself No more refurbs! You see how that worked out. These rifles are addictive. Once you start down this path (buying that second Mosin), consume you they will, and forever will they dominate your destiny. I'm not joking. Good luck!
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
I have a picture of the magazine floorplate. I didn't post it because it has the serial and it's not mine to post. Can you usually tell by the stamping method if it was a forced refurb? I think I've seen the electro method and it looked very different. Did they sometimes smooth the old serial off and re-stamp it to where it didn't look any different?
By the way, I appreciate your very detailed post. It's always nice to tap into someone else's wealth of knowledge. I'll definitely check out the videos soon.
By the way, I appreciate your very detailed post. It's always nice to tap into someone else's wealth of knowledge. I'll definitely check out the videos soon.
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
You're welcome, but a considerable chunk of my wealth of knowledge is attributable to the real experts on here and their generosity in sharing what they know.
I won't get into the subtlties of stamping, but if it's a refurb, it's been force-matched. I don't think that the Reds were too particular in making the numbers look like they were all from the same stamp. However, everyone else who ended up with these rifles as military arms had their own way of marking them-- or not.
I won't get into the subtlties of stamping, but if it's a refurb, it's been force-matched. I don't think that the Reds were too particular in making the numbers look like they were all from the same stamp. However, everyone else who ended up with these rifles as military arms had their own way of marking them-- or not.
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
Also, you are liable to find any era stock on the refurbs. Yours could have had a pre or post war stock. Any of them would be correct.
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
I would say you are getting a refurbished parts rifle numbered to match for about a good going price. They are out there in some spots for less and others for more. I bought a couple recently for much less but that is because I have bought many rifles from the dealer over the years and he knows I will likely be back again at some time in the future. Refurbs are like potato chips you can't have just one! It is an excellent beginner area for a budding collector but man old timers including myself scoff at people who collect them. I have to admit all you guys who collect them have worked on me and I guess you have to start somewhere and with something that is available. OB has pretty much cut off the flow of them although I have been alerted to a source of them from Bulgaria which are nothing more than drop shipped Russian ones coming from a US import accepted source. Who knows how long that will last? Most of these rifles are excellent shooters and even for $200 or more where else can you get a high powered rifle for that price that has been refurbished like new? Enjoy your new to you rifle and be on the lookout for the next one! See I know how this works Oh to well! Happy buying in the future! Bill ,
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
To answer your question on the sling eyes, yours is common especially on 1943s. Some will have some metal in them, some will have no metal and some will have the original full escutcheons on both sides with very small screws holding the escutcheons in place.
- WeldonHunter
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Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
Refurbished M91/30 rifles make up a lot of what's available in this country and are basically assembled from parts of many other rifles in most cases. That means you're liable to find any year stock and a mixture of parts from one or all of the factories that made them. This is a fairly good explanation of the refurb process. http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/ref ... index.html
- steelbuttplate
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Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
Did ya get it? If so, does it have good rifling left? If so, and your interested, I have a method of making a dark bore shine again if regular solvents don't do much. It usually works PM me if interested......SBP
" There are two kinds of people, the good people and the ones that aggravate the hell out of the good people"
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
Nope. I didn't get it. I had a talk with the guy and he seems okay with me changing my mind. I've never done that before but I really got to where I didn't want or need it. Daughter's birthday was this weekend and I'm flying out to Denver next weekend. I like to have spare change when traveling.
Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
dbfan2007 wrote:Nope. I didn't get it. I had a talk with the guy and he seems okay with me changing my mind. I've never done that before but I really got to where I didn't want or need it. Daughter's birthday was this weekend and I'm flying out to Denver next weekend. I like to have spare change when traveling.
Dad I think you made an excellent choice! Have a great time and treat her to one too! Bill
- bunkysdad
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Re: Questions about a rifle I'm buying Saturday
I agree with that last comment. You can find something when the funds are right, but being out of town with a little extra cash is a nice feeling.