PU sniper - question about originality

[p0gi]

I recently aquired my first Mosin Nagant sniper rifle and I have some questions about it's originality.


1st question: All parts have matching serial number (DG556), but the reciever, the barrel and rear sight also have modern markings (MADE IN RUSSIA) painted on. Can anyone explain me more about these markings? Was it reissued by Russian federation, or are those only export markings? (photos).




2nd question: It's made by Izhevsk armory in 1943, but it's missing the scope serial number on the left side of the barrel (all though it has barely visible serial number on the far bottom of the barrel)? Does that mean, that the barrel in not from original PU sniper rifle?



3rd question: It has a serial number added on the left side of the reciever. I have never seen an example with serial number there. Maybe it was added when reworked?



4th question: Is the scope ww2, cold war or modern production?




Thank you for your answers!

[Lotema]

1. The markings are laser etched in Russia and are required by Russian law for export.
2. I don't believe that all of the Izhevsk PU's always received the scope number on the left side, though this is probably the first of the recent imports that I've seen that does not have the serial number there. I'll leave that to more knowledgable folks than me to answer better..
3. US government regulations require the serial number on the receiver.
4. Looks like a '43 scope that was refurbished twice, once in '55 and again in '65.

[p0gi]

Thanks for your answers!
Based on your information I found out that the laser etched markings are from Tulsky export company.

But I'm still not sure if the barrel is from an original sniper rifle, due to the lack of scope serial number. Quote from mosinnagant.net: ˝The Izhevsk factory began this process of scope serial number matching in the later half of 1942 and continued on through the close of PU sniper production at that facility in 1948.˝ Based on that information I assume, that examples from early 1942 can be found without the scope number, but my example is from 1943. Is it possible, that the barrel has been replaced with a regular Mosin Nagant barrel?

[Darryl]

... but my example is from 1943. Is it possible, that the barrel has been replaced with a regular Mosin Nagant barrel?

Post a "clear" photo of the left side of the barrel shank where the scope numbers are normally stamped. Sometimes the scope numbers were "scrubbed off" during refurb and you can see it ....... if you know what you are looking for.

Dolk

[zeebill]

Unfortunately preparation for the laser etching sometimes removes any possibility of there being any scrubbing remains there. By coincidence? I don't know but there sure are a lot of things about PU snipers that I have a lot of questions about. I would say a clear answer is not forth coming and I am tired of getting smoke blown certain places of my anatomy. So I have two older PU snipers left and they are staying here for the rest of my life. That will suffice for my unanswered questions just fine! Bill

[Darryl]

Bill,
There is no laser etching that I can see on the left side of that barrel shank. There is no "prep" for laser etching that would remove the indent of a ground off scope number. It will always be present because it is missing metal.

Here is a close up of "p0gi" shank from above (what we can see of it)
I notice the flat (fig. A below) and that is a example of "grinding off the scope number". At least one I noticed.
I'm kind of interested in the stamped in item (fig. B below). But I'd like to see the rest of the shank before saying one way or another.



Take a photo of the side of the shank and post it. It may look like the photos below.

This one had the original scope numbers ground off and the new scope numbers added. This is "very" common on refurbs and usually is easily spotted.
Notice the dip in front of the first digit (2) and also on the line that separates the barrel shank from the receiver. That drop off edge will change a bit. It's also a little flat in that area.
Not to mention the old numbers are slightly visible. That is not always common.



I'm not sure what happened with this photo (I think it was lighting) and it is not a change in the bluing. It really looks like the photo above, but also, notice the slight change in the graining where they tried to "match" the finishes up.



All of this is very common of a ground off number and very typical of them to replace scopes.

Dolk

[p0gi]

Here are some more photos of the shank:



I noticed a couple of things after close examination:

A: Ignore the stamped hallmark, it's just a modern German inspection mark, that was put there after being exported from Russia.
B: Some signs of grinding/polishing. Also the entire left side of the shank has slightly smoother surfice than the rest, the finish on that side also seems a bit darker (very slight differences only visible under certain angles).
C: The edge between the shank and the barrel seems to be slightly sharper on the left side than elsewhere (again very slight difference observable only with a lupe).

Based on that, it seems the left side of the shank has been somehow tampered.

[zeebill]

Unfortunately preparation for the laser etching sometimes removes any possibility of there being any scrubbing remains there. By coincidence? I don't know but there sure are a lot of things about PU snipers that I have a lot of questions about. I would say a clear answer is not forth coming and I am tired of getting smoke blown certain places of my anatomy. So I have two older PU snipers left and they are staying here for the rest of my life. That will suffice for my unanswered questions just fine! Bill

Not being able to see the tulski marking was a stamping in the first pictures I assumed it was a laser etching and the polishing that was done was to facilitate that not the stamping which is obvious in the second shots of the area. I have however seen quite a few with polishing, scrubbing, grinding, or what ever one wants to call it done to facilitate the laser etching in rifles for sale at shows. There are available and to me being used so many modern processes to cover tracks and make the sale of these rifles viable and acceptable to current and newer collectors I find myself completely disinterested in them for any reason. This is merely a personal choice of my doing and if others choose to buy them more power to them.

You will also note in my own quote above I have the word sometimes. I never stated this was the case in the above rifle. I meant I had seen this done sometimes and was asking if it was by coincidence or maybe on purpose? Draw your own conclusions as it is your money you are spending and there fore your choices. I just get a bad feeling spending all that money on what could be or could not be the real thing and wonder if down the road we will find out the wrong answers? Bill

[Darryl]

Here are some more photos of the shank:



I noticed a couple of things after close examination:

A: Ignore the stamped hallmark, it's just a modern German inspection mark, that was put there after being exported from Russia.
B: Some signs of grinding/polishing. Also the entire left side of the shank has slightly smoother surfice than the rest, the finish on that side also seems a bit darker (very slight differences only visible under certain angles).
C: The edge between the shank and the barrel seems to be slightly sharper on the left side than elsewhere (again very slight difference observable only with a lupe).

Based on that, it seems the left side of the shank has been somehow tampered.

Certainly looks "scrubbed" of the scope sights to me, and is typical of a "scrubbing". I'm not up on the "stamp" that is in it's place (German marks).

My personal opinion:
But it certainly looks to be legit in my book. I wouldn't worry about it if it were in my collection of snipers......Just "my opinion".

Dolk

Laser etching takes no preparation at all. We do it at work all the time. None of the Tulsky have been "prepped" before they laser etched them. Why would they. If they did, then they would have to go back and match the bluing again, which would be cost preventative. Laser will burn through anything and into the metal.

[zeebill]

[quote

Laser etching takes no preparation at all. We do it at work all the time. None of the Tulsky have been "prepped" before they laser etched them. Why would they. If they did, then they would have to go back and match the bluing again, which would be cost preventative. Laser will burn through anything and into the metal.

The two places I watched the rifles get stamped for import with the dot matrix numbers which I was told was a form of laser marking they both wiped and brushed the area to be marked to stop the smoke it made otherwise. I was told the machine was like $12 or $13 grand and was down more than up so they started cleaning the area to be laser marked. Now in retrospect I am asking out loud is laser etching the same as laser dot matrix marking? I have no need to know so I haven't a clue, anybody know? Bill

[WeldonHunter]

[quote

Laser etching takes no preparation at all. We do it at work all the time. None of the Tulsky have been "prepped" before they laser etched them. Why would they. If they did, then they would have to go back and match the bluing again, which would be cost preventative. Laser will burn through anything and into the metal.

The two places I watched the rifles get stamped for import with the dot matrix numbers which I was told was a form of laser marking they both wiped and brushed the area to be marked to stop the smoke it made otherwise. I was told the machine was like $12 or $13 grand and was down more than up so they started cleaning the area to be laser marked. Now in retrospect I am asking out loud is laser etching the same as laser dot matrix marking? I have no need to know so I haven't a clue, anybody know? Bill

I've always been curious how they do these. I can see the different types on some of the rifles I have. I found this doing a Google search and it seems to explain the difference between dot peen dot matrix and laser etching that can also be a type of dot matrix or datamatrix marking. http://www.sic-marking.com/datamatrix-m ... er-systems

[Darryl]

.

The dot matrix is a "peening" process. There is no laser, but is more like a dot matrix computer printer (of the old computer days). We still use a dot matrix printer for our invoices because they will print through carbonless paper onto multiple sheets of paper at one time. That process for metal is about the same and you certainly don't have to prep any thing except possible a little light oil on the surface (maybe).

Each "pin" comes out with a quick force stamping a "dot" into the metal. usually they are 3 pins x 3 pins (square pattern like a digital clock). Some times they are 24 pins instead of 9 pins total (finer printing)
Individual dots peened into the surface





[hr]

Laser is a lot different, and yes, the area has to be cleaned, but no grinding or prep to the metal other then that is necessary.
it burns into the surface (while under control for depth), and is MUCH sharper and smoother letters and numbers.









[hr]


A more "cruder" way of marking is what the Russians used which is electro pencil which is a harden tip that is vibrated to create the marking. Everyone has see those.
Usually sloppy and hand done lettering. Hard to control.

[email]http://thedolk.com/sniper/mount_02.jpg[/email]

[hr]

Also another way that the Russians used (mainly on the post WWII rifles and M91-59's is electric arch etching.
More like a arch welding process but not as hot and as high of amps. You can really notice it on the very edges of the letters and numbers ... a blueish or black burned area around the edge of the lettering (from the heat process). Also a hand process like Electro pencil, but much easier to control (neater).



[hr]

Stamping: Nothing special about that.



[hr]

Lastly, that I can think of is engraving, which is done with a rotating cutter (like bowling trophies or a Dremel tool ...sort of). You see this on the scope numbers and lettering on the PU scopes. (one of the ways to tell if it is a fake or real .... fakes are laser etched and smoother).





There are probably others I have missed, but those are what most of the markings on Mosins are.


But, none of these processes require any grinding or altering of the finish. So you can see if it scope numbers were ground off or not. Eeven if they did this over the top (which I have never see over the top in the scope number area). Sometime they re-stamp the numbers on using a stamp process, but ..... you can even see grinding then.

I've been wanting to write this for a while for the info pages, so at least now I have a "rough" draft!
Dolk


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[zeebill]

OK Thanks for the marking education. One of the things that struck me about that dot matrix system was the insane types of noises it made. If I had to sit there all day and listen to that any amount of time I would have ear muffs on for sure. If dot matrix on metal has no heat or laser why would they say smoke was a problem and that is why they cleaned the area? The only laser I have ever used was one of those measuring systems for pipe fabrication and it sure was neat and saved a lot of time and made for greater accuracy too. Bill

[Admins]

This topic should be in the "Sniper Forums".

[WeldonHunter]

Who is this mysterious "Admin . " person? Inquiring minds need to know.

[joe7170]

Here's a video from Simpson Ltd. shows how they laser mark their import markings. If you have any guns imported by them, you know how neat and small the import mark is. laser engraving starts about 13:00 in

[BBvideo 425,350]http://youtu.be/kbdk0K35h0w?t=13m[/BBvideo]

Guy in that vid says laser printer, and it cost $38,000