Is this a good group for a 1941 Izhevsk M91/30?

[Mosin-Marauder]

I have to admit, I was *this* close to giving up and selling this old rifle. Due to it's sudden plummet in performance. Struggling to hit paper at 50 yards w/ surplus LPS. Which dumbfounded me, as the same ammo (just a different lot) shot absolutely superb for surplus. After firing one more "pattern" with this ammo from two different shooters, measuring over 6" at 50 yards. I was ready to give up. I tried one more type of ammo just to confirm my fears. And lo and behold this happened:
.

This was with 180 grain Winchester soft points (.308-.309 diameter). At this point it was obviously the ammunition and not the rifle. This is a 2" group, my best ever at 50 yards with this rifle. So, is this a good group? For a wartime refurb?


Now, this raises another question. If it does this well with undersized .308 ammo from a .311-.312 bore (haven't slugged it), would that not mean that correct diameter PPU or hand loads would do better? Ideally I'd like this to get 4" at 100 yards (I've never shot it much at 100). I can only hope so, anyway.

Anyway, if anyone has any tips on ammo to try or recommendations for hand loads (I'm getting a Lee Loader sometime soon) I would really appreciate it. Thank you for your help.

-Mo.

[jones0430]

2 inch group at 50 yards is a nice group for any rifle. With the 91/30 it is very good. You could expect to have around a 4 to 5 inch group at 100 yards. If your eyes and skills remain equal.

[Bugelson]

Well, as the serviceable accuracy grade of standart m/91-30 in the Red Army was 4 shots inside of 15 cm (about 6") circle at 100 metres yours would have passed. Though that Red Army standart for accuracy is terribly low.

[81turbota]

That is a great group, a good indication that the barrel/muzzle condition is good.

Both of my refurb 91/30's would hold a 4" group with surplus ammo until I looked deeper. I think a huge issue with these refurbs is stock fit. Look at a Finnish mosin, they will have action and barrel shims. My M27 Finn will hold a 1.5" group or better at 100 yards.

I am a tinkerer by nature, and decided to play with my 91/30's (non destructive mind you). I found that proper action bedding with shims and a slight upwards pressure on the front portion of the barrel improved accuracy dramatically. Those 4" rifles went to 1.5-2" groups with surplus. Soviet snipers would do the same thing, as noted in the original manual. They would place a section of oiled canvas under the front portion of the barrel.

These rifles will surprise you if you take care of the details. I have a lot of fun consistently busting clays at 150yds with my 1931 91/30.

[zeebill]

Patience, practice, finding the right ammo for a certain gun, maybe tweaking with non permanent shims, trying to change the tightening pattern of the action screws, realizing what effects accuracy negatively, and so many things other than these effect how good a rifle will shoot that you will drive yourself crazy if you delve into it too much. I shoot for the pure fun of it and frankly try not to get too involved in trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. The Mosin is a battle rifle not an accuracy champion (even though a version of it was used in a world championship shoot) and it does handle poor care and slipshod maintenance with a ruggedness that amazes me. It does do what it was designed to do and well. If you will not be satisfied with that and want more buy a Remchester and spend the bucks to have what will satisfy you. Me my $100 or so Mosins bring me great joy and yes I tinker with them but try not to get too serious about it. By the way I think that is a great group for a battle rifle of any kind shooting surplus. Bill

[sonney]

Did you try 100 yrd. It looks like it is 1.5 inches high so it should be right on target at 100 or 150.

Sonney

[Mosin-Marauder]

I'd like to try 100 off the same rest at a bigger target (No way I could see this at 100). Maybe a 12" bull. At the Moment I have shims of cork gasket above the recoil lug, under the chamber of the receiver, under the tang, and lining the bottom of the barrel channel. It's almost like it's clamping the barrel in place. I'l' try to get a group at 100 and see how that goes. I'l' try the WInchester and then 2 different types of PPU (182 Grain FMJBT and 150 Grain SPBT) Then I'm going to start tinkering with some Handloads.

[81turbota]

Good, you already bedded it in. Some mosins like clamped barrels, some like free floating. There's all kinds of tricks.

How's your trigger?

[Mosin-Marauder]

I did polish the sear a bit. It improved about a pound. I'd say its maybe a 5-6 pound break (not too sure) with a good bit of take up. I don't really know how to improve it from here. I might polish it a bit more. I don't know.

[Mosin-Marauder]

I took it out again at 50 yards today. I used some Brown Bear 203 grain soft points (lacquered steel case). Actually shot pretty well for how cheap the ammo is. I'm going to try some of the 174 grain brown bear and see how that's shoots. The I might buy 100 rounds of whichever shoots the best. The brown bear 203 grouped 3 inches on the dot at 50 yards. About 2-3" high and to the right. Actually pretty satisfied. I'm quite certain I might have just pulled some shots. As you'll notice two are almost touching and three are within. An inch of each other. I just hope it translates well to 100 yards.

Going to get out 100 yards range ready sometime this weekend/next and fire 5 rounds of Winchester and 5 rounds of Brown Bear and some PPU just so I can get a good test of different types of ammo. Anymore advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks,
-Mo.

[bunkysdad]

Lots of practice. I mean like hundreds of rounds. Then a few hundred more. These groups look good to me. For shooters that are used to using a scope with a nice fine cross hair, it might not be easy to comprehend just how small the bullseye is especially at 100+ yards.

[Mosin-Marauder]

I will try some different ammo at 50 and 100 yards and buy in bulk what shoots the best at each distance. I'll be trying PPU 182 Grain FMJBT, PPU 150 Grain FMJBT, Brown bear 174 Grain FMJ, Brown Bear 203 Grain SP, TulAmmo 147 Grain FMJ, and MFS 174 Grain FMJ. It will take me bit to amass that much ammunition, but I'l get it done. 5 Rounds at 50 yards and 5 rounds at 100. We shall see what happens. Hopefully I get good groups at 100, then I can practice a lot more.

[jones0430]

There is a Hollywood impression that one must get 4 inch groups with iron sights at battle ranges (100-400 meters). Remember that the training and expectation for these rifles was a six inch group at 100 meters, which is very good shooting. The normal target at battle ranges is a man-sized torso, the ubiquitous e-silhouette target. You aren't expected to have a head or heart shot every round.

Hitting the e-silhouette is fine and having them around a 6 inch group is good. And tactical dicteine actually calls for rounds to be "close enough" to force the rarget to seek cover. Even marksmanship training in the 1930's US Army was relaxed about size of groups at battle ranges.

[Mosin-Marauder]

6" is not something Im willing to settle for at 100 yards. at 200 and 300, definitely. but 4" is the worst I'm willing to accept at 100 yards.

[Bugelson]

expectation for these rifles was a six inch group at 100 meters, which is very good shooting.

Off-hand and standing, yes.

But from sandbag that is outrageously terrible shooting if the rifle performs as it should perform, technical accuracy being about 2-3 MOA.

6" group was where the rifle was judged to be serviceable. Over 6" it was send to armorer. 6" is really bad accuracy for a rifle, even in the RKKA.

[Bugelson]

expectation for these rifles was a six inch group at 100 meters, which is very good shooting.

Off-hand and standing, yes.

But from sandbag that is outrageously terrible shooting if the rifle performs as it should perform, technical accuracy being about 2-3 MOA.

6" group was where the rifle was judged to be serviceable. Over 6" it was send to armorer. 6" is really bad accuracy for a rifle, even in the RKKA.

[jones0430]

Marksmanship expectations and rifle capabilty are two different and separate things.

[Mosin-Marauder]

Not expecting anything. I'm just not settling for Horrible accuracy.

[Bugelson]

Marksmanship expectations and rifle capabilty are two different and separate things.

Yep. And the 6" at 100 metres was the lowest approved technical accuracy of the rifle. And that is bad, really bad. It has nothing to do with the marksmanship.

It is a completely different thing how a Soviet conscript could do even with a 1 MOA rifle. That is marksmanship.

[bunkysdad]

Unless you have the rifle secured in a weighted lead sled or some type of gun vice that eliminates any movement before firing then I just don't see it being feasible to even consider getting rid of a rifle from a few bad groups. Back to what I mentioned about using a scope, if you rest a scoped rifle on a good bag, not a vice, but a good bag rest and just look how difficult it is to hold the crosshairs on the center dot. The slightest movement, your breathing, your pulse, your grip on the rifle, etc..... and the crosshairs move ever so slightly. Then factor in the trigger, twitch from the coming recoil, wind, it just doesn't take much to open up a group. Marauder, I can tell you're military, you know all this, and also a little gung-ho on your group expectations and that's a good thing. But some guys reading this stuff might just think that they can grab a old stiff bolt action rifle with a post sight that has a sight pin that totally covers a 8" bullseye at 100 yards and put all the shots in the center with a nice tight group or it must be the ammo! Right? I find the most accuracy from my handloads, but even my best usually doesn't produce a target that I want to post pictures of.