what does this mean?

[jimpierce7]

Sorry guys, my noobness abounds here.

Mosin-Nagant -- Finn M39 7.62x54R 1967 sneak C&R rifle not m91/30

what is that? Its nothing I can get but curious.

[BuckeyeSgt]

It was something about them not being able to make rifles at that time. I think. So there won't be a maker on the barrel.

[emcon5]

A Google search finds the auction you are talking about, it is a Finn m39, with a barrel date of 1967, built on a 1915 Izhevsk action.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12594638/ ... not-m91-30

No idea why it would be called a "sneak"

[BuckeyeSgt]

Don't post links to live auctions. If its closed its fine.

[emcon5]

Don't post links to live auctions. If its closed its fine.

From the link:

AUCTION CLOSED

[Junk Yard Dog]

" Sneak" is a term applied to Finn M39's made after 1945, total bullshit as the Finn's weren't sneaking anything, the date of manufacture is plainly right on it. Some people refer to the no date M39's as sneaks, again not the case, a no date M39 is just an M39 they didn't bother to date, just another post war marksmanship training rifle, nothing sneaky about it. There was a topic the other day on the board about a 1967 M39, or maybe it was '68, if it sold for under $400 then someone got a good deal.

[BuckeyeSgt]

Don't post links to live auctions. If its closed its fine.

From the link:

AUCTION CLOSED

Sorry. The way it was worded I thought it was live. It was late my bad I apologize.

[zeebill]

Sneaks were called sneaks due the fact that the armistice the Finn's signed with the USSR forbid certain things from existing or happening anymore. One of them was the manufacture of rifles by known rifle makers (VKT, SAKO, etc.) so they had dates but not makers hence they were sneaking them past the terms of the armistice they had signed to end hostilities. The USSR became the enemy of the free world and the Finn's friendly defenders of their countries freedom. They survived the soviet onslaught of takeovers and turning of countries to communism after WW2 so they very naturally became our allies for the most part resisting Communism. The M39 although a great weapon was being bypassed by many weapons made by many countries of the world so it became a second line weapon used for training and obsolete on the battlefield. I am guessing with all the other things facing Communism the fact that the Finn's sneaked in making these rifles even though they may have been in violation of the armistice the Communists had so many other things to occupy them they considered the No Maker or Sneaks a minor problem. They chose to ignore them evidently and they are out there and available for collectors and shooters too. Sneaks? no not really but the name has stuck with many collectors even though for obvious reasons it was incorrect. Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

These late date M39's were built at Finnish Army arsenals like AV3 and so on, these were not prohibited specifically by the treaty. many were built using older barreled actions, or leftover wartime parts like the B barrels made from cut down M91's

[zeebill]

[Junk Yard Dog]

The question remains as to why the Finn's would construct these rifles as late as the 1970's when they had hundreds of thousands of M39 and other rifles it storage and their military was armed with the AK variant.

[zeebill]

Being frugal they wanted to avoid putting wear and tear on the AK variant and using ammo of their major defense weapon so they started making these no makers? Bill

[Junk Yard Dog]

One ex 1980's Finnish army soldier told me on youtube that he recalled only seeing these rifles during marksmanship training around 1982. I asked him about any other use, but he told me the AK was used for all other purposes. The M39 they used to learn distance shooting on the range, they never took them out into the field.

[Bugelson]

Sneaks were called sneaks due the fact that the armistice the Finn's signed with the USSR forbid certain things from existing or happening anymore. One of them was the manufacture of rifles by known rifle makers (VKT, SAKO, etc.) so they had dates but not makers hence they were sneaking them past the terms of the armistice they had signed to end hostilities.

Simply not true. The armistice or peace treaty said nothing about small arms.



Sneak is just another pseudoterm invented over the big water. No offence to American fellow collectors.

I think they made the rifles as they had parts available. Also the political atmosphere in Europe might have helped the desicion to build the rifles. Just in case. And Mosin-Nagants in all forms were rear echelon weaponry to the 1980s.

But true, the issued late m/39s were pretty much only used at ranges.

[Junk Yard Dog]

All the sand I found tightly packed under the wood on all of the late date rifles was a clue , sand from range sandbags, and that much showed extensive range use.

[Junk Yard Dog]

[Jallukola]

The whole 'sneak' term is pure bull turd. While the Paris peace treaty of 1947 set some restrictions to Finnish Defence Forces (no submarines, nuclear weapons, bomber aircraft), it didn't explicitly forbid manufacture of rifles. The war time strength of the FDF would have been close to 600 000 men. Sako and Valmet (VKT now under Valtion Metallitehtaat, 'State Metal Industries') had produced thousands of AK-based RK-62 assault rifles by 1967, and FDF had even bought a small number of AK-47s from Soviet Union, but the bulk of the army would have been equiped with bolt action rifles and other weapons left over WW2. The FDF has been and still is somewhat notorious in conserving the best equipment: I've heard that in the early 1970's Finnish conscripts could have had three rifles: M91 to be used in dirty field training, M39 as main shooting rifle in range and RK-62 to be used only in parades and other 'public' situations like military oath.

[Bugelson]

True. FDF was seriously underarmed compared to it's strenght. Paper tiger. And like said M-Ns were in storages for rear echelon troops untill late 1980s.

The FDF has been and still is somewhat notorious in conserving the best equipment: I've heard that in the early 1970's Finnish conscripts could have had three rifles: M91 to be used in dirty field training, M39 as main shooting rifle in range and RK-62 to be used only in parades and other 'public' situations like military oath.

This is a fact.

One can say that m/91s really saw service long and hard in the FDF. Many have told me how they hauled their m/91s through the forests still in the early/mid 1970s.

[Junk Yard Dog]

This shows in the worn outer condition of many SA marked imports, especially the older Czarist era rifles. On one hand I have a 1942 dated M91 that is near spotless, unissued looking, and a 1940 VKT that looks as if it was dragged behind a truck. State guard units here in the US were still using WW2 era M1 Garands well into the late 1970's, and a friend of mine recalls being issued the M1 rifle while in Navy boot camp sometime in 1987. The government of Finland was not the only one playing cheap.

[emcon5]

and a friend of mine recalls being issued the M1 rifle while in Navy boot camp sometime in 1987.

I went to Navy Boot camp in Orlando FL in 1986, and we drilled with fiberglass-stocked 1903s. If I remember correctly, they guys who were on the drill team used M1s.