M28 and C&R"itis"

[berkmberk1]

Thanks to redrockin7 I have a new member to the litter....

M28b.JPG

Tika assembled. The markings on this one are a bit different. I don't see any SA marks at all. I would assume that the Civil Guard turned over most of their rifles, but not ALL!? I also noticed that while the Finn SN is stamped on the left side of the barrel, there is another SN on the right....different numbers, different font.......might this be a re-used Russian barrel. Additionally, If you can make it out in the pictures, there seems to have been some heavy handed grinding on the right half of the back of the barrel. I don't know if they ground off some marks or something else. While I haven't looked "under the wood", there seems to be some evidence that the right side of the weapon may have been affected by rust? blood? There is metal roughness on the right, and discoloration of the metal. Speaking of finish......I would appreciate comments about that. Observe first of all, that the stock is exceptionally shiny.....a lacquer/varnish job? Is this typical for this model? If not, how would I go about getting it somewhat back to original? I don't want to risk damaging anything so I would only scale it back a bit. Also, if you check out the metal work, some of it is awful glossy. Do you think the "shine" job was done with all the parts still on the rifle? One more thing to look at is the rear barrel band. It looks painted, and the screw might not be the proper one, as it protrudes from the off side. Overall, I would say its in pretty good shape for 85 years or so!

As for C&R"itis" I'm thinking of bidding on a 28/30 that ends in about half an hour!!!

[berkmberk1]

Update: its stripped down. The barrel is definitely painted (as is part of the receiver and the trigger guard/magazine, and barrel bands) or has some sort of coating, black and shiny, like enamel....pretty uniform at one time. Another weird twist is that I can hardly find any marks on the receiver.....except for two unrelated very small numbers, a 5 and a 3, in different orientations and about an inch apart. on the bottom near the lug. On the top of the tang are two tiny tiny marks I can't make out. Other than that NOTHING.

[desdem12]

Don't see any pictures of the marks or the "paint" and absolutely not a reused Russian barrel on the m28. The m28 is a finn civilguard rifle and therefore had district number stamps that are not serials.

[berkmberk1]

Don't see any pictures of the marks or the "paint" and absolutely not a reused Russian barrel on the m28. The m28 is a finn civilguard rifle and therefore had district number stamps that are not serials.

I'll have to use my macro lense to illustrate, however, there are two serial numbers on the barrel, not district numbers. The left side "24030" in 1/8" numbers. Right side "S14369" same size, those numbers cancelled with one "slash" mark per. Right side numbers same as numbers on bolt just forward of the handle. "30 " on butt plate.

The dark finish you see in the pictures is not a result of a "bluing"process, but actually a BLACK enamel type substance. Its on the barrel, and the receiver (there are "runs" near the rear), and maybe the magazine (see below). In some small areas it has been removed - by apparent grinding around the barrel shank, and scraping or some form of chipping around the fore end of the barrel near the front sight assembly. The barrel band and front cap show the same finish, though you can see typical bluing in areas where the "paint" is not uniform.

Additionally, it seems quite apparent (nearly impossible to show in a picture) that the entire rifle was coated with something like clear shellac WITHOUT disassembly!I can't imagine a Finn armorer with a six inch brush slopping an assemble weapon like that. Its everywhere! When I pulled the trigger guard/magazine you can clearly see a brush stroke line on the "exposed" metal (either the shellack or the enamel, can't tell, its as dark as the metal, but its shiny. The portion enclosed in the stock is totally normal. I tested a small area of that part with paint thinner and it didn't even phase it. The sling escutchions (sp?) look like they were decoupaged onto the stock. I bet I could remove the screws and throw them away without causing a problem......if I could get them out! (haven't tried)

In pictures, the rifle looks GOOD, and it still is.......no major damage.........just a really weird finish on wood and metal. It looks like someone tried to "pretty up" their old rifle. What I need to know first, as I evaluate what to do or not do, is determine what the wood/metal finish should be like on a M28.

Secondly, I need to know what I have mechanically. Its apparent the marks I do have possibly make no sense, and the fact that the receiver has NO apparent manufacturing marks doesn't make sense either. Other than the afore mentioned serial numbers, there are traces of the Civil Guard =s= markings on the right side. There is also a four digit number of the same size as ths SNs "4059". From what I've read, there can be numbers or dates down there, but not like these in my understanding.

I would hazard a guess and say someone monkeyed with this rifle a long time ago............and they weren't a pro!

(Just pulled the butt plate (most definitely painted, as it just flaked off from the screws) and I found "24030" stamped in the wood! COOL!

[berkmberk1]

Scratch the concept of serial numbers. Rechecked my references. My impression was the district numbers were much smaller. Still, I hadn't heard of them being stamped on the bolt.

[cj1964]

Maybe the original civil guard member tried his hand at refurbing this one.
I've seen some similar finishes on Finn stocks, but never any paint. The Finns did refurb rifles and M28's have been known to be upgraded with 28/30 sights, so an odd finish isn't out of the question. You're probably right about the brush strokes in the finish though - likely the work of "Bubba".
Civil guard numbers show up on bolts from time to time. Having the original number on the stock, bolt and butt plate is a real plus in my opinion! You got a nice rifle overall.

[desdem12]

Remember that m28s are completely in their own category for marks. Some don't have serial numbers and only have S numbers and sometimes the S number is on the bolt to "finn" match. That is the case with my m28. It has the S number on the bolt. You will have to show a pic of the paint for us.

[gurn]

Sounds like you have a real cool one to me too. How about a few pics of the unmarked receiver barrel area. The M28 is special also for the fact that it was the rifle used by Simo Hayha with which he took down over 500 Russian solders and made him a national hero.

[berkmberk1]

Here you go. Its really hard to get the effect in a pic. The finish seems to have a "thickness", not just a smooth blue black job. If you notice the damage near the muzzle, you get an impression that something has been removed, not just scratched up.

As for the numbers........they look pretty uniform/original to me........I'm just wondering about that crossed out Civ Grd # and the fact that there isn't another one if it was transferred. I can't find a hint of a SA on it, though I've read they aren't on every rifle.

[gurn]

If its pre 1943 then the civil guard district was Pohjois-Uusimaa. After 1943 it would be Salo

[Longcolt44]

See Pm.

[Flyin Brian]

Interesting thread here... I don't know what to add to it except more questions!! first off, I'm a little confused about what desdem said about some M28s not having serial numbers? I thought I had seen a lot of M28s and I have never seen one without a serial number... maybe you are thinking of the dates? They do lack dates.

I do agree your rifle has funky finish but I would encourage you not to modify it in any way until you have THOROUGHLY studied this rifle and had someone who is very familiar with Finns examine this in person. There is no way to go back so don't be in a hurry to "fix" it until you know what you are fixing. There are some finns that were refurbed after the war, not like the Russian sense of the word Refurb, but they were reblued and sometimes had replacement stocks mounted, counterbored if needed, etc. The blue was often thick and a very dark flat black, and looks pretty odd. I don't think that is the case with yours but I can't tell much of anything from those photos... I would definitely recommend trying something different on the photos.
As to the funky wood finish you have, that also can be mistaken for bubba sometimes. I can't tell with yours, but there have been some finns imported with slathered on oil finishes. I had one once and I know it came straight from the importer like that. Who knows, but I would have someone look at it who can give you a second opinion. M28s and 28-30s sometimes had a lacquer finish applied called "4 hour pomo" and it is much shinier than what you normally see on the dry stock finns, but it won't be slathered on like you are describing so again, probably doesn't apply here.

In regards to your serial numbers- The number on the left side of the barrel shank (24030) is the original serial number. That is the number on the bolt too, which is correct. It is also correct to see the last 2 digits on the face of the buttplate, which it has, and that is a good sign.
The number on the right side is the civil guard district, proceeded by the S.
I wouldn't stress about the receiver markings, the were sometimes scrubbed for some reason, I have seen quite a few with no markings. I would expect you could find at least one tell tale mark on the receiver to give you a clue to what it is... if we had some better photos it would help. You might try looking on the bottom of the barrel a few inches in front of the rear sight for a diamond with a <27> or a <28> in it, which would denote the year the barrel was made... I don't recall if they were still doing that this far into production as this is a Tikka barrel and towards the later part of production (1929 to 1930 maybe?)
The rear barrel band screw is probably correct- it is not uncommon to have it sticking out the side. Remove the band and put one wrap of black electrical tape around the left side of the band... that way when you screw the screw in, it will have tape over the end and protect your other rifles in the safe.

FB

[berkmberk1]

Nope. Not there. I looked for the Tika year stamp........doesn't have one. I would like to know about the front sight assembly. Is it sweated on, or is there some sort of fastener insied sonewhere? I was looking at the nose cap, and there is no way its coming off the barrel with the sight in place!

As a side observation.......I was wiping out the inside of the stock with a rag and suddenly got a whiff of something "burning"......like hot metal and gunpowder..........probably absorbed by the wood. Anyone else ever experienct that?

[Flyin Brian]

The front sight base is both soldered and held on by a screw. If you look at the top of the base, you will find a small grub screw either in front or behind the front sight blade. That screw is what held the front base in place prior to soldering the base onto the barrel. M27s have the screw behind the blade, M28s have the screw in front of the blade, M28-30s have a slightly different base (like an M39) but they moved the screw to the rear again on those.

I've had some stocks with funky smells like that, they are almost like a room scent in my office, smells like grease and hoppes #9 in here, which is fine by me!
I just took one of my old M91s apart yesterday and found half a teaspoon of sand and pine needles ;)

[desdem12]

maybe you are thinking of the dates? They do lack dates.

right no dates. Thinking m24 and m28 probly

[berkmberk1]

I'm pretty sure I understand why it looks "painted"......in a way it was. Not only are there brush strokes in the finish, there were runs on the receiver, and for sure shellac on the magazine from brush overlap. What nailed it was when i decided to clean up the sling "hangers" and the sling slot escutcheons. I thought the brass would look kind of cool with the color of the stock if they were cleaned up some. Well, I did clean them, and they aren't brass. They are steel. The had so much amber colored shellac on them, they were brass colored! I then cleaned off the receiver......shellac on the rag. I cleaned off the exposed parts of the barrel......shellac on the rag. Someone, sometime actually shellaced (sp?) this thing, completely, with a brush, while it was totally assembled!!! I don't think I can be convinced that a professional armorer would even need to do something like that. Weapons are torn down to overhaul, and I'm sure there was a whole shop devoted to stock maintenance.

Now that the metal has been cleaned up, it still looks good, pretty much the same, except it doesn't have that "glossy painted/layered/" look anymore. It looks like my other rifles.

I'm researching ways to smooth out the finish on the stock now, as it has some considerable courseness to it since it was brushed on and not wiped on. If I can remediate that just a touch, it should look outstanding. I don't feel bad about that at all as the evidence clearly points to someone doing a terrible job of "beautification".