H&R 410

[Darryl]

I just picked this up from Kari's old "honey hole" yesterday. I had no intention of buying anything (just took my son over for a look). But because I knew Kari, he lowered the price to $150 plus dros and tax (about $200). By the time I got it to the front counter, he lowered it to $125 out the door. Said it was a Kari special today. These guys are some of the finest guys I have ever met in a gun shop, and fun too!

Krausewerks, in San Mateo California.

I got it because it fascinated me being a 410 in single. Very light!

OK, JYD, what did I get!

I have to buy ammo. The bore looks great but in the chamber area there seemed to be two rings as though they had fired two separate lengths of ammo. These rings are not "damage" or a bulge or even pitting, and they cleaned right out with a brass brush and Hoppies. So it must not have been cleaned very well. But what was of interest to me was, the two "dirty rings" about 1/2" apart. Is there different ammo in different sizes for this shotgun? Or did the owner fire two different size 410 shells when he probably shouldn't have. Aren't there two sizes of 410?

Dolk

[Junk Yard Dog]

It's made to H&R's old topper design. a good, solid workhorse of a shotgun. Good deal. You don't know what it is? The name is right there on the side and people say I need new glasses

[millman]

2.5, and 3 inch .410 shells are the standard sizes available. That would explain the two rings.

[Darryl]

It's made to H&R's old topper design. a good, solid workhorse of a shotgun. Good deal. You don't know what it is? The name is right there on the side and people say I need new glasses

OK wise guy, I saw it.

How can you tell when it was made, by the serial numbers? or is that not possible?

I see it say 1900, but that is a patent date.

I wonder if it was both 3" and 2.5", or did this guy just shove them in. I would guess I could safely fire 2.5"...correct?

Seeing it was probaly made in the eary 1900's, I'm assuming it is safe with a modern load (light).

I'm really not a shotgun guy at all, but I have always loved 410's for some reason. When I saw it, I couldn't put it down. I know they are going for around $275 up on Gunbroaker, so I didn't do too bad.

Last question, what is 410 44 cal mean? Just the size of the bore? why the 44 part?

Dolk

[millman]

I can't say for certain without looking it up, but my guess it will take up to 3' shells. 2.5s would certainly work.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Not sure why they would mark it .44, the .410 is closer to the 45/70 than the .44-40, or any of the other .44 cartridges. My guess would be 20's or 30's, I don't know who has the H&R company records, or if they are available to the public, they may not have retained records so dating it could be hard. Looks like many H&R's I have seen from the first half of the 20th century, the .410 is not common, most were 12 gauge. Good rabbit gun, and tree rats. That is not a twist steel barrel, you are fine with ordinary .410 loads.

[cwb1944]

i would figure it says ".410-.44cal" because it was probably designed to shoot the .410 shell and the .44 pistol round, its weird though because my dads and grandfather's .410's both say .410-.45. and their both many many years apart and made by different companies. i know you can shoot the .45 pistol cartridge from them, not sure if i would want to though lol no rifling with a slug could be hairy. either way nice little break over.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The .44 -40, .44 Scofield, and the .44 Russian are all smaller in size than the .410. Could be a miss stamp that should say .45

[Junk Yard Dog]

That would be for pistol shot cartridge at best, with no rifling in the bore a pistol bullet out of this gun would have to be fired under ten yards to be worth anything at all as a hit. The pistol bullet would not expand on firing, or have a patch on it to contact the barrel, it would just bounce down the tube .

[bunkysdad]

I'd almost swear that I have read not too long ago about these. I can't remember but it seems that the person was considering whether to fire a 44 cartridge which it was intended for, but not our modern 44 like 44 special. More investigation needed. One thing is likely, is that you will only be shooting 410 shotshells anyway. I may have read about it over on a forum that is big on H&R rifles. Graybeard Outdoors, a good forum. They collect Handi Rifles like some folks collects Mosins

[knssrtrd]

""This is the precursor to the American 410. The 410 was in use in England as early as the 1870's. In the US there were a number of shot shell rifle and pistol cartridges being made, but very few guns meant specifically for their use. It is believed Annie Oakley used a 44 Shot in her act.

In 1900 Harrington & Richardson began producing a single shot with a wide variety of chamberings. This gun became so popular that they had to increase the size of their factory 3 times in the next 5 years. By about 1901 they started offering this gun in the 44 Shot.

A lot of companies took note and began to offer single shots in 44 Shot. In 1908 Marble announced the Game Getter pistol with folding stock and o/u barrels chambered in 22LR and what they called the 44GG. Note, these are all 44-40 brass loaded with either a solid ball (44GG) or shot (44XL). I have seen 44XL made with a wooden shot capsule, a waxed paper capsule and a simple card over the top of the brass. The ammunition was manufactured commercially until almost 1950.

The next development was to offer these single shots in 44-410. The 410 was almost always 2" brass at this point. The 1st USA made gun chambered for only the 410 was the Stevens single shot in 1913. About 1915 the 2 1/2" brass 410 was being chambered. "

We know Parker produced a 410 sxs in 1924 which may be the 1st American sxs in 410. Crescent did produce a 44-410 sxs and later several models of sxs 410's. Because much of the history of Crescent is not well documented, it is hard to tell were they fit into this time line.

By the 1930's the 3" 410 was being chambered.

The gun you have can NOT handle the pressures of a modern 44-40. It can NOT handle the pressures of modern 410 ammo. It can handle hand loads that are worked up to maintain a safe pressure level.

Pete
Copied this from and place.

[entropy]

I have one almost identical to yours. DO NOT fire metallic cartridges in it whether they fit or not, it's not worth losing appendages/eyesight. ( Or blowing it up in a test vise) I can safely fire low brass 2 1/2" in mine, and I recommend that's what you stick with, too. Be sure to test vise the first round.

[mosinmike17]

That's a beauty. I picked up a Pardner 12 gauge single shot, nothing special, feels cheap as hell but I like it because it's light. Now, if I couldve had me a classic looking .410 like that, I would be pretty damn satisfied.

[Greasemonkey]

Interesting, I have the 12ga version with identical markings, shot it a few times, but it kicked like a mule, even with a standard bird shot load Knew who made it, didn't know the model name till till I read this. It was on of those I have that I don't use much and never looked up anything about it. Don't know if wire wrapping is normal.

[Rongo]

Great find!!! I have a 1930's era H&R 16 gauge folder that handles light loads just fine, but I would heed entropy's suggestion to stick with the light stuff on that one.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The Topper was H&R's basic single shot shotgun for near a hundred years, New England Firearms, and H&R 1871 continued to make an updated version of it well into the 1990's and it may be in production today, I haven't checked. I used to come across these all the time years ago, but these days they are in demand as wall decorations, I like them for this myself. They have fluid steel barrels, not twist so if they are tight they can still be shot, but like Ron/entropy have said it would be best to stick to low brass loads in the older ones.

[Rongo]

The Topper was H&R's basic single shot shotgun for near a hundred years, New England Firearms, and H&R 1871 continued to make an updated version of it well into the 1990's and it may be in production today, I haven't checked. I used to come across these all the time years ago, but these days they are in demand as wall decorations, I like them for this myself. They have fluid steel barrels, not twist so if they are tight they can still be shot, but like Ron/entropy have said it would be best to stick to low brass loads in the older ones.

Still in production as H&R again. Selling them at Wallyworld for $129 in 12 ga only. I would consider getting one if we had them in .410.

[bunkysdad]

Can it be ordered in other guages?

[Junk Yard Dog]

There was that place in Alaska that was offering cartridge conversions for single shot shotguns ( or doubles) an insert that slid into the old tube, turn a 12 into a 20 or 410. They used to advertise in shotgun news years ago.

[Rongo]

Can it be ordered in other guages?

Not through Walmart it can't but I'm sure you could find one a 20 or .410 elsewhere. Personally I would look for a good used one. I still have the 20 gauge my Dad bought for me as a kid as my first pheasant gun. Light as a feather & kicks like a mule!